KEY POINTS
Some seriously wild experiences at the frontier of Philippines' marine mammal research in the 1990s
Involvement of social workers and fisher exchanges (peer-to-peer learning) in community collaboration for MPA establishment, including Apo Island, in the 1980s (so, this kind of thinking isn't new!)
How small no-take zones in coral reef habitat can still have an important impact
Outlook for the future of marine mammal research in the Philippines
Glimmers of hope among the many daunting challenges
Recalling the awe of the snorkel outing that inspired her to go into marine biology research
INTRO
Hi everyone, and welcome to Conservation Realist, the podcast where we get real about making conservation better. I am Dr. Tara Sayuri Whitty, an expert in conservation evaluation, capacity building, and research. And I am, let's say, a pragmatist who does, on occasion, feel hopeful – when it's merited.
As always, thank you for being with me. This episode is a particularly special one because it features an interview with one of my most important mentors, Dr. Louella Dolar. She is absolutely the reason that I am so involved in the research and conservation community in Southeast Asia. She is, without exaggeration, truly the matriarch of marine mammal conservation in the Philippines, and I've just learned so much from being in the field with her.
I first met her, my goodness, 16 years ago, when she very generously offered for me to join her in the field in the Philippines. And this was through a connection with my PhD advisor, Dr. Lisa Ballance. I think it was just a week or so that I spent with Louella for that first survey in 2009. But wow, I learned so much, and it was super exciting. We were basically on the the first survey to really confirm through seeing the live animals that there were Irrawaddy dolphins off the coast of Guimaras Island, between Guimaras and Panay. And this was the forerunner to the long running research and conservation project by now Dr. Mark de La Paz, who was featured in an interview in Season 1 of Conservation Realist.
There's so much I can say about Louella and her background, and [sudden change in sound quality] forgive the sudden change in sound quality. I did, indeed, say a bit about her background, and that segment has mysteriously disappeared. So I am re-recording it and I do not have my microphone handy; I’m just using the built-in microphone on my computer. Long story short: my brother broke his arm this morning, and I rushed out the door to meet him at the hospital, and I’m now spending the night at his house and I am ill-equipped to record this. Anyway:
Dr. Louella Dolar has been heavily involved with Silliman University, particularly the Institute of Environmental and Marine Sciences there, for decades. She’s currently an adjunct professor there. She actually got her PhD from Scripps Institution of Oceanography, and like me, worked closely with Dr. Paul Dayton while there. So we are part of the same academic family, so to speak. She informed my dissertation work considerably, and her late husband, Dr. Bill Perrin, was on my committee for my dissertation. She has run her various recent research projects through Tropical Marine Research and Conservation, which is her entity.
In addition to myself and Mark, Louella has also been an important mentor to two of my other Season 1 podcast guests, Dr. Jom Acebes and Jean Utzurrum. And she has very recently offered hours and hours of very generous mentorship to the Myanmar Coastal Conservation Lab team as well, helping them learn how to analyze their line transect data. And you heard from Myanmar Coastal Conservation Lab via Yin Yin Htay, also in Season 1.
I could probably go on and on, talking about Louella's kindness, generosity, inspirational curiosity, her tenacity. She's also a fantastic cook. Actually, I need to write this down: she raises funds for current Silliman University graduate students to do research, and she's also an amazing gardener, so she does plant sales. She grows potted plants and sells them as as a nice little fundraiser. She should totally also offer cooking classes, so people can learn how to cook Filipino food. I'm gonna write this down to remember to suggest this to her. I've gotten to enjoy many of her delicious meals here in San Diego, where we're both based, and also last year when we were in the field together in the Philippines. On top of everything else, she also cooked for us, which was so enjoyable!
I also got to spend time with her last month in the Philippines as well. And as always, it was a pleasure to just be with her, to teach alongside her, to be in the field with her. She definitely has much better field stamina than I do. And I've really seen her energy outlast pretty much everyone else on the boat.
I have a lot more that I could say. But I do want to jump into this conversation. It's a little bit of a longer conversation because I just kept wanting to hear more from her. But I'll leave you with this: I was scanning some of her publications, and in this one from 2006, “Abundance and Distributional Ecology of Cetaceans in the Central Philippines,” the acknowledgements were slightly unusual. Here's part of them: “Our thanks go to the observers and volunteers who stuck with us through typhoons and a chase by pirates.” And that is kind of the quintessential Louella. So without further delay, let's get into it.
INTERVIEW
Tara: Thank you, Louella, for being willing to chat with me. You are one of my most important mentors. And you're the reason I do work in Southeast Asia now!
Louella: Oh, thanks. I'm so happy to have you there.
T: it was so nice to be in Palawan with you, again!
L: Yeah, wasn't that just beautiful?
T: Yeah. And the students, too! So, Louella and I were part of a project that did a workshop with university students and they had such great energy. It was really motivating.
L: Quite inspiring to see young people who are very interested.
T: I've heard you tell a lot of stories from your education and your career, but I haven't pieced it all together. So I'd love to hear from you like a, a summary of how you ended up working in marine mammal conservation. Like were you once like those students, for example?
L: Yeah, actually, I didn’t really have a clear career path early on. Just after graduating or finishing my bachelor's degree, I worked at the university as an instructor. It was just taking on whatever opportunity is presented or is available. So I started teaching and then in one of my actually in one of the assignments, our Silliman University has this extension program. Aside from research, it does extension in healthcare and also conservation. So our chairman, he assigned me to do for conservation of forest species. I would go with together with some students, we would go to public schools, elementary schools and we would do a puppet shows about forest species and so on. And the kids really enjoyed that. So we would allocate, I think about two days or three days in a month and we would go to or different elementary schools in Dumaguete and also nearby towns.
And so that kind of opened my first work on conservation. And I really enjoyed it the seeing all the kids, how interested they were, teaching them the the importance of a watershed and why we need to conserve the forests and their importance in daily life, and the source of water for our city, and so on. T hat was actually like the beginning.
And my next conservation work was on coral reefs. Since I was teaching ecology then, the project leader asked me if I could participate in community education. At that time, they had a project on establishing marine sanctuaries in three different islands in the Visayas, so Apo Island, Pamilacan and Balicasag in Bohol. So Apo Island is near Negros, so it's part of the Negros Oriental province. We would prepare these educational materials. And, at that time, we couldn't afford a slide projector. So one of our faculty members was very good in art, and she would have this big manila paper and she would draw like food webs and similar concepts. And we would go to these islands on weekends and then taught them about the importance of corals and how what is its role in the whole ecosystem. And most importantly, how it helps them have fish to harvest, because that's what they're they care most, you know, fish yield.
So then we had this idea of having the fishermen themselves go collect plankton. With them, we would bring in a plankton net and they would collect the plankton, and I brought some microscopes and they would look into it. They were so amazed to see that there were microscopic shrimps! And then they say, oh, so it's not just water. It looks just like water, but there's actually smaller animals there. And then they were the ones who kind of like connected the dots: so if they would use poison because they used rotenones, you know, some kind of some kind of an extract of one of the fruits that is that is like a poison that they use to get the fish out of the reef. So they would just release that liquid poison, and then all these fish, you know, the groupers, sea bass and so on, they would just kind of get weak. And so they'll collect them, and also they collect aquarium fish, too, using that.
So they were the ones who actually connected the dots. Like, so if we release this poison, then that means it will kill all this microscopic animals, you know, all this plankton, and then the fish wouldn't have anything to eat, and then we won't have anything to harvest.
T: That's really interesting to hear. I think we heard this in the workshop with the university students. Even some of them were like, “we have to go educate the fishers,” which is partially true. But I think even young professionals, even seasoned professionals now, still underestimate how much the fishers themselves know and how capable they are of reaching conclusions themselves. So it's really cool that this is what you saw. I mean, what year was this around?
L: Oh, that was that would I would be revealing my age!
That was like from 1981 to probably until about 1987. Until the sanctuaries were were established, that was just one of the components. But there were social workers who required to live in the village, to really live there, and also join in all the community activities. Even wash their clothes together with the women in an artesian well. Just to gain their trust, because that was the hardest - to get their trust for the conservation program to become effective.
And so one aspect is to just to teach them – not really to teach, but just to share with them – what we know about coral reefs andmarine ecosystems. So we would do that: share one topic per visit. And the social workers were really, really good in gathering people. Like, they would have like dances and exercises, and then of course food, which is a very important part of any gathering! So almost the whole village would attend it.There would be people from 7 years old to 70 years old, all sorts, men, women, small kids.
And there were fishermen getting involved. There was one fisherman who was so enthusiastic and he asked: Can I do this? Can I share this with others, the fisherman in another village in another island? So that was that was really very rewarding. That kind of cemented my cemented my interest in doing conservation work.
T: I love that example. My first time in the field with you, almost 16 years ago now, you told me about the social workers being involved in Apo Island. And this is the kind of approach that I think people are thinking of now. You know, there finally is more recognition, even though it should have been obvious, that we need to really work with the communities and really consider their needs and and have them as leaders. And so I often think back to what you've told me about Apo Island and I’ve kind of wondered… I'm curious on your thoughts, Louella, why that kind of approach, which worked very well in Apo Island, was not more common after that?
L: Oh, in terms of coral reefs and sanctuaries, protected areas, it actually kind of replicated. Because we learned from an earlier lesson, a top-down kind of establishment of a protected area with Sumilon Island in the 1970s. So that was more like the other way around. The island was awarded to the university to take care of, in a sense. So a protected area was established. But then the locals, from the nearby town on the bigger island of Cebu – Sumilon is a small island, maybe about 100 hectares or something like that or even less, which belongs to the municipality of Oslob in Cebu. And so those people use Sumilon island to fish, a lot. And so they were prevented by the no-take sanctuary. The area was totally protected. And so the locals really resented it.
At one point, I think maybe early 1980s, they did the muro-ami. Muro-ami is a method wherein they pound the corals to drive the fish out and they have a net waiting, and then they close in the net and collect them. So they did that in in the coral reef. But before that, it had, I think, one of highest fish biomass per unit area. You could just go to water, like waist-deep, and you could see parrotfish this big [holds up hands about 2-2.5 feet apart]. So beautiful!
And then they put tourism in… the town claimed it back. They put a helipad and a hotel and a restaurant on the island. And in the protected area, they put a fish trap, like a big fish trap that would collect all the fish.
So yeah, it was so devastated. After that, Dr. Angel Alcala and Dr. Alan White, who were leading this program, they learned: it's very important to really get the cooperation of the community members. So that's how they tried a different approach from the bottom, up.
What they did in these three islands was: ask the people first, you know, slowly introduce the concept and then ask them to set aside a certain area. So it was them who decided which part of the coral reef they would assign as a no-take, totally protected area. It was just a small area. So maybe about 10 by 10 meters sometimes, or 15 by 10. You know, it wasn't a big area. And of course they would give the most denuded park, you know, since they don't use them.
And so two social workers, I think, lived in each of these three islands and really worked with the people, just like a member of the community. And even asked them, if they were going to town, if they needed something, if they want them, you know, to buy slippers for the kids or something like that. Can you please buy bread for my family? Things like that (but of course, they didn't buy it themselves, the community members gave the money to the social workers and asked them to buy it for them). So it was like that.
And then slowly, through that process, and with the education too. That constant contact, I think it lasted 3 to 4 years, that whole process. It was long and more like from the bottom up. Later on, the program provided them with snorkel masks, so they could go there and they would see what's in there. Also, they could go on the water and monitor people who went there, to the point that, after the sanctuary was established, they were totally into the monitoring and the guarding. The stewardship was handed back to them.
Even if I took my students for a field field trip there to go snorkeling, they would investigate our boat and make sure that we don't anchor on reef! So they were policing us already. So that means they cared.
It was quite surprising because in two of the islands, when they started, it was just like mostly coral rubble. But after a few years, 10 years, or five years, corals actually started to grow back. And then, once it was successful, we moved on to other communities. Instead of doing the whole thing over again, we would take the people, the fishermen, from this new area to do a field trip in Apo, Balicasag, etc. And so fishermen to fishermen, they trust each other more. That’s how it's kind of replicated along the coast of Negros.
There were others on the program, too, like Dr. Annadel Cabanban and then later on Doctor Tiempo. So it was a big group. And there was a social worker teacher, too, a social work teacher who was with a group.
T: This is just such a great example. And again, it's so interesting, and maybe a little frustrating to me, that this happened in the 80s. It was demonstrated that this works very well, and yet that kind of approach still hasn't become mainstream. I wonder, from your perspective, like, in the Philippines, what might have been obstacles to this method – even though you were able to replicate it with other reef sanctuaries very locally – what do you think might have prevented it from continuing as a more widespread approach?
L: I think one limitation is that it takes quite a lot of effort, time and also funding to have the project last for, like, as long as three years. And I’ve also asked about that, that’s the only conservation project really, that I know of, that use social workers. Yeah, at that time, they were thinking: it's easier to, to teach social workers to learn biology than biologists to become social. They they just have a different way of connecting with people. It should be done more.
I think funding is one barrier. The other two is, especially if there is a a resource, you know, if because fishermen sometimes, when it comes to marine mammals, when we want to apply conservation for marine mammals, it conflicts very much with fishing activities. So it's very difficult to set aside one area to be enough. Like we could, we have established marine mammal seascapes, but it's very difficult. Of course, for marine mammals, you need a really a lot wider area, and most fishermen don't really want to give up that big an area.
For coral reefs they can set aside maybe like a hundred, 100 square meters. So it doesn't really affect their current fishing much. But for marine mammals, especially on the bycatch… we’ve been able to remove the direct hunting, so that's kind of successful, mostly. But bycatch is still a big problem, because most fishermen don't really want to give up their fishing methods and a huge area to become a no-take zone. And also because marine mammals are more mobile…
T: They’re very inconvenient!
L: Yeah. It's very hard even to just, you know, to just prohibit one type of fishing. It's like, “OK, no gillnets” is very difficult. Also, on the one hand, the government wants to increase food supply. So one part of the fisheries work is to increase catch, so the government would loan nets to the fishermen for food production, to increase fisheries catch. But on the other hand, there's also the hope that none of those new methods would be harmful. And policing, too, is very difficult. Like, we have a lot of fishing gear suit. So, for example, the sudsud - we call it the Danish seine… no, it's not “sudsud,” it's another type…
T: The hulbot?
L: Hulbot! Good.
T: There’s so many gear names!
L: But hulbot, there's still a lot of them, even though they’re supposed to be prohibited. And you know, dynamite fishing is supposed to be prohibited, but in very remote areas it still happens.
T: That is always a challenge. Speaking back to marine mammals: how did you get from being part of these coral reef projects to being like the matriarch of marine mammal research in the Philippines? How did you get into the marine mammal field?
L: I was very interested in marine mammals very early on, even when I was working on the forest conservation. Actually, it started with this American girl who came over to work in the forest to collect data for her dissertation, I think because we have connections with universities here in the US. So, we have visiting professors and also we have biologists who go there to collect information on marine or terrestrial mammals and so on.
So this student, she was wearing this sweatshirt with a killer whale on it. And I said, you know, I really like dolphins and I really like marine mammals and so on. So she talked to me about it and then she gave me her shirt! And when I was going to do my master's, I was like, can I study marine mammals instead? But it wouldn't be approved, because the scholarship I got for Australia had to be used for something that the Philippines could use in food production. That's why I studied fish. It had to be something “useful,” so to speak, that has economic value.
But when I went back to the Philippines, that's when it started to see dolphins really taken in fisheries. One time I went to the market and I saw dolphins being sold, you know, for their meat. And so I thought, so we have this here. And then it became very rampant, that we could even see them, you know, bundled with the tuna. Yeah, I’d go to the market, and there's just so many being sold like meat. In one place, there was this river that had a lot of dolphins on the bank, like dead dolphins waiting to be sold. So it became very rampant.
And so I thought we really need to work on this, this is a good opportunity to study this. But at that time, it was hard to get any funding at all to study marine mammals. So I just started doing it on the weekend and on also in summertime, just like, little ports and little steps at a time. Just going to the market first. Of course they're there. Taking pictures. And also, when we did other projects, like we did some environmental assessments or giant clam projects, I would volunteer to those other projects and ask around about marine mammals too, and collected some samples.
Actually, before that, there was the opportunity to go to the Smithsonian, to study and learn how to identify marine mammals, just by the skull and so on. Before that, I didn't know anything much about marine mammals. So when I went back to the Philippines, I started collecting data.
And then just, you know, just some kind of a chain reaction. You go to one village, ask them, ask the fisherman. And there were skulls hung at the back of their houses. And then they had the spears that they used to hunt. And from there, they will say, “oh, in another village there is this, too,” so I would just take the bus which goes around Negros and the route’s by the sea. So you could see villages, you could see fishing villages. And I would stop and then just ask fisherman. And I went with them when they were fishing. So it was just little steps like that.
Then later I went to learn about the driftnets and the tuna fisheries. I found this place where they landed, where they were all congregating, but it was very remote. So I was able to board the purse seine - the commercial tuna boats – which was quite difficult at the beginning. But later on, I was able to go with them when when they would go fishing on weekend and then I also transferred to the carriers. So I just interviewed all of them and saw how they fish and to which market they take the bycatch and all that information. So I made some assessment on the fishery bycatch.
T: I'm sure there is a lot that contributed to your success, but what do you think were some things that helped you get on board these vessels, that helped you get the trust of these people?
L: Persistence! Just keep on doing it and wear them down! Haha.
But actually when I first started it, it was somebody who told me, oh, there are these big purse seine boats in the southern tip of Negros, but they don't dock. I mean, they don't come close to shore - they're really far away. And so I asked a small pumpboat and I said, “Can you take me to that boat way out there, to that ship?” And so he took me. Then once I boarded the the tuna boat, I told him, “Go back, go back to shore! Just leave!”
And then I asked the fishing boat, “Can I go with you?” Of course, they were shocked: “No, you cannot!” Definitely not, because first off, they have this superstition that if a woman is on board, then they won't be able to catch any fish
T: Oh, yeah, that’s a common one!
L: Yeah, I think in Thailand, too, they have that. And so I said, “But how can I go back to shore? It's already late. It's too far. It’s like 7 kilometers to shore.” And the captain said, “Well, you might get seasick.” And I'm like, “No, I won't get seasick. I never get seasick.” (But of course, I was seasick, I've been seasick before.)
He said, “When you get seasick, I will tie you up there on the pole!” So it was just like that, like bantering. And it's like, “OK, you might find yourself up there on the pole first before I go there. You'll probably be up there on the pole before me!” So he said, “Are you a spy?”
So we took about two hours of just bantering with “Are you a spy? Like why come with us?” because we had this 7 kilometer from shore boundary for municipal waters, so that commercial boats are not supposed to go in there. He’s like “You might be a Bureau of Fisheries spy to see if we’re in municipal waters!” There was no GPS yet at that time. So I said, “How long have you been fishing?’ And he said, “Oh, 15 years or so.” “So from here to there, how many kilometers do you think is it? Is it 6.5? Is it 6? Is it 5.5?” And then he said, “No, I don’t know.” And then I said, “See, you don't even know. How do you think I could tell that you're fishing at 6.5, not 7?”
And then he said, “You can use my my cabin to sleep.” You know what the connotation is. And I said, “Well, if I wanted to sleep, I should have just stayed in my dorm because I have a really nice bed there.” So it was just like an hour or two hours of bantering until it was so late that they had to leave – they already needed to go out.
And I’d I brought with me fish books and camera - a camera is a very good thing. It's a very useful weap- I mean, tool.
T: A weapon! A “tool”.
L: So I started taking their pictures, and of course at that time, there were no cell phones. So taking a photograph was quite special. So all the crew men, they started posing and so on. And I showed them the fish book by Masuda and I think it was very colorful. So I explained, “I study fish, and also larger fish,” because for them, dolphins were fish. And so they got really interested.
There was this pastor or some layman in that role on board, and they said they pray before every time they leave to fish. With that, I breathed and I thought, “Oh, they're good people, because they pray before leaving.” So I felt a little safer then.
T: Yeah, I remember you said you didn't tell your mother about these adventures!
L: Yeah! Because everybody was just like I'm crazy, “What are you doing out there?” And they're going all the way to Mindanao, to Zamboanga for two nights while they're fishing. So I was able to document everything that they were doing and so on. And also I interviewed the fishermen. I mean, with this first time, they said that they caught 60 dolphins when they surrounded them with nets because they used fish aggregating devices (FADs). The FADs float, and fish shelter under there – smaller fish, bigger fish and so on. And so what they do is they surround that with a net and then they pull the FAD, the floating bamboo away, and then they collect the fish. And of course, since there's a lot of fish under there, there's also dolphins who feed on those fish. So occasionally – not really occasionally, often – they caught the dolphins with them, too. And I was able to just get some documentation and also interview, ask them like, you know, in the past two weeks or in the past month, how many, etc.
And also, I interviewed the fishmonger. I would transfer from tuna boat to the fish carrier, as the tuna was being transferred to the fish carrier, and then talk with the fishmonger who would take them to the market. After that, we became good friends with the group and I could move from one tuna boat to another. So they will just radio the other boats to coordinate.
T: That’s great. That’s so impressive.
L: The fishermen are really good people. I trust them more than I trust taxi drivers in Manila!
T: And I think that's really important, that you related to them as people and not as this faceless group of stakeholders, you know? You really saw the humanity in them.
L: Oh yeah! They would even send me birthday cards. And I tried other fishing too, like all different kinds of fishing. Driftnets, I went with them too, the driftnetters. And also there is the smaller version of purse seines which is just in municipal waters. I went with them, too. Sometimes it was like the middle of the night, it was all dark, and and I would just have this flashlight because I had to catch them before they leave. So it's like very remote, like 9 in the evening, and so dark – I’d see just this little light far away - and I said “I have to get there before this boat leaves!” because they fish at night, sometimes very early, like 4:00 am that they would leave.
It's just… if you want to do something that bad, you will be able to do it.
T: I mean, there's so many elements to these stories that are so cool! There's the adventure part, and your courage and persistence, and how you have forged this relationship with fishers. But also, I've noticed this or learned this from you since our first time in the field together 16 years ago: you always have this curiosity. So you weren't just stopping at “I'll go on the fishing boat.” You're like, oh, “I'll go to the the carrier and I'll also go with the fishmongers.” And I think you have such an open mind for what you can learn, which is something that I've learned a lot from. And I think it's easy, asthe field has gotten more and more specialized, for people to lose that. So when we got to be in the field again together last year, I was like, “Oh, that Louella energy, always asking questions!” I really enjoyed it.
L: Yeah, I think it has no limit, no age limit. There are so many things that need to be learned. And I think those people, the fishers who are there every day, they know more about the sea than we do. They really are very good resources. And, as I mentioned, it's like a chain reaction - they will mention something and that would take you to a different place or even to a different project.
Always there's still a lot of new things that that I find every time I go out, something new that I've never heard before. There's almost like an endless opportunity there to know more.
T: Well, even in just, I don't know how many days we were in the field together- like four or five last year – even just in that time sitting in on your interviews with people, I was like, Oh my gosh, there's so much! I was feeling anxious - anxious is maybe too negative – rather, I was feeling really excited about how much there was that could be done, working from some pretty basic questions actually to some really fascinated, complicated projects. There were just so many ideas that were generated just from watching your conversations with these different fishers.
L: Yeah, yeah, they know. They know quite a lot. And there was one fisherman that I was so impressed with, that I asked him what it was like - because we always have that, you know, when you do interviews, “So what was fishing like before compared to now?” So this fisher, he correlated “why is there more bycatch now than before?” with nylon, with the emergence of plastics, emergence of nylon. And he said before, it was made of cotton, their nets were made of cotton. So it was very easy for the dolphin to break away from the entanglement and also because they rot easily, especially in warm tropical waters. So they were not as sturdy. And then he said before they only use paddles, so they have they had paddle power. And also they had nets made of cotton that would rot, and then the nets were were replaced by nylon. So the nylon can stay longer, stronger and. And also the advent of the machine pumpboats - so they're not paddling anymore, they could reach farther places and they have better gear.
And so he just pointed it out and he used for his timeline, his life. So he would say, oh, that was when I was courting my wife. And he said that for Irrawaddy dolphins, for example, in Pulupandan, and he said that even south of Pulupandan where the dolphins no longer are: he said that, when he was still courting his wife (maybe that was like in the 60s) that they would sit by the beach and the dolphins would just swim, lots of dolphins, a very long line. Dolphins would just swim past them.
And then they got married, and then he would say, oh, when my second son was born and there came this pumpboat. So it was very, very interesting. So many things you could learn. And in fact, they have local names, even before our officials knew that cetaceans are present in the Philippine waters - because before they [government agencies, researchers] thought, no, there are no dolphins here. I remember one time, I said, “Oh, there's a lot of dolphin bycatch, and so we already have this paper on it,” and they said, “Oh, she doesn't know what she's talking about, she means probably dolphin fish, not dolphins.” But, so before scientists, before biologists knew or recorded that there are cetaceans in the Philippines, these fishermen, they already had very specific local names for each one. Like for Fraser's dolphin, they have a local name for it. They call it “mayahun,” which is because of the small beak, which is like the the bird. So they have very specific names.
T: When you said you were, you know, getting that paper out on the cetaceans and people were like, “Oh, she doesn't know what she's talking about” - was that other researchers locally or who? Who was that?
L: Actually, there were some people who worked with the government, and as there was like outside pressure as like, “Oh, we heard that there's a lot of bycatch!” after we presented the paper on bycatch of dolphins, the response was like, “We don't have dolphins here.”
T: Well, there are many dolphins there. And one of the questions I have is: you've mentored so many people who are now this whole generation or two of the marine mammal conservation force in the Philippines. And, you know, they are wonderful researchers, but their number is definitely not a match for how much ocean habitat and coastal habitat there is in the country. And I'm wondering what your thoughts are about the the future for marine mammal conservation in the Philippines and and cultivating local talent to contribute to that?
L: One: we try to encourage a lot of students to go into marine mammal research. And of course there's no shortage of interest in that sense, because cetaceans, marine mammals are very charismatic. But the hurdle or the other factor of not having a job after that, that's the big drawback. So most students, although they want to study marine mammals, but they want to have a job that they could rely on. Yes, especially the guys though - as you have noticed, there are a lot of women scientists in the Philippines, right? Yeah, because usually the woman kind of help out with the husband, but usually it's the husband who is the major earner. So they would rather have a job that's reliable in a sense. Lik those who are taking biology, for example, they mostly 80% of them, or 85, even 90% of them, become doctors.
When I started, I also wanted to become a medical doctor. In fact, I took pre-med, but the snorkeling and seeing all those beautiful fish, the coral reefs and everything, just kind of changed my direction. But now, they mostly they want to become either engineer or nurse. The nursing profession is really siphoning all the good brains! It’s also a really important profession, because it's so marketable and supportable. You can go anywhere, and you can find a job. A lot of very bright students, they go into that profession.
So that's why we [Silliman University] have this scholarship that we want to support students who decided despite the uncertainties of having a good job, good salary at the end, when they finish, but yet they chose to be into conservation of marine mammals or whatever type of conservation. So that means that these are people who are really dedicated, you know, that they really want to do it. That's why they're there, despite any other reason. So our group here, the alumni, we're trying to support that to raise funds to support students at our university who are working on conservation, any environmental or conservation related thesis for the undergraduate and the graduate students. Because that's the hardest, to look for funding for if there is no economic value to the project, because you always have the same proposal, always put in: what's the economic contribution of your study? And those are the ones that get funded mostly.
And conservation-wise, for marine mammals, it’s very hard to to find funding. So in very little ways we try to encourage that. And in fact, some of the students who really are into that and who have graduated, they have occupied - not so many, but a few - they are, in fact, now in the government, working in the government, and they carry those same values. So hopefully they will try to modify, you know, the way government looks at the environment.
And also we're going into groups, like the religious groups, too. There are grassroots groups, for example, who look at environment more of, you know, people as a steward, not as an exploiter or a dominion over everything.
So yeah, going back – I think I strayed a little bit – so that's one problem. It would be good to have a lot of students working on conservation. But I think conservation is one of the hardest things to do.
T: Yeah, not only with the uncertainty with having a livelihood, but also: the Philippines, as many other countries, is under so many different environmental threats and it can get almost dangerous – no, actually dangerous, at times. I come from a very different situation than a lot of my colleague-friends in the region, because I don't live in the countries where I work. I very much appreciate the privilege of being able to collaborate with all of you and, and visit your countries. But at the end of the day, I am able to leave and go home to a different country. You know what I mean? It's not the same, I think; it’s in some ways not as vulnerable as being based there and advocating for things that powerful interests who just are looking at the financial gains might not want to hear. So yeah, it's, I think it's a lot for for people to dive into. And yet there are many people who do.
L: Yes. And I really admire the young people, like you, who are willing to go deep into conservation and really put everything at stake, just for that purpose. And I see so many young people now. We have actually now marine biology course at Silliman. So those are, at least at the beginning, on track to be marine biologists. And so we're trying to support them.
T: I'm wondering, because you have been based in San Diego for so many years at this point, yet you maintain your roots and your contribution to your home country: do you feel a sense of pride or or some special connection, like when you go back to the Philippines and you're doing research or you're mentoring students that are so important to the natural heritage of your country? What does that feel like to you?
L: Yeah, very much so. Feels really good, in a way. Also I, two years ago in 2023, I got to snorkel in Dauin, and that was one of those places we tried to establish a sanctuary in the 80s. And so that was like 30 years, over 30 years. And the corals were quite amazing! They were like Acropora with big branches.
And I remember how they were before: they were like rubble that many years ago. And I remember drinking tuba [coconut wine] because I haven't tried before, but you have to do most of these things if you want to get to talk and get the trust and first connect with the local officers. And so at that time, these places were almost like rubble. In the 60s and 70s, dynamite fishing was still really prominent. So most of these coastal reefs have been denuded. And so, there was one sanctuary in a little barangay [village], and then maybe about 10 kilometers away, another small sanctuary. And all these sanctuaries have kind of expanded and they coalesced.
So now you see that in Dauin, it’s lined with dive shops, right? Diving has become the major economic industry.
And Dr. Alcala was our our boss before, and he was the one who had this idea of: it doesn't matter how big your sanctuary is. There was this idea that a protected area needs to be huge in order to become effective. And he was one of these who was not really believing all of that. He thought that even small area set aside as a no-take zone could make a difference. And that's why very early on, in the 70s and 80s, he and all the other workers of the lab really put a lot of effort into establishing, convincing locals to just set aside, even if it's just like 10 meters by 10 meters area.
And so now there they were studying a spillover, and yeah, the protected area can support some fish, and some of that fish now spilled over. And the little sanctuaries that were farther apart, they started to just increase in their area and then they coalesced. And it was very rewarding to be snorkeling in the same waters as like 30 years ago, when it was tiny coral rubble - and now it's the main tourist attraction! With a lot of fish, actually.
And Apo Island is one of the areas that you can still a lot. The fisherman could harvest still. So in in that sense, I feel – not really proud, but I just feel still excited. Just like, seeing how even little things can really make a difference.
T: Yeah, I remember that really resonated with me, because when I first went to the Philippines with you, I was still taking classes in graduate school and didn't have a lot of marine field experience. And hearing you talk about how even a small sanctuary could make such a difference, it went against what I was still being taught. And it was just really fascinating to me to hear that very real, on-the-ground account of a place where someone might have given up because like, oh, this area is too small, it's not worthwhile. And the people who actually did work there did establish it, and decades later, it's still an amazing spot for diving, for marine biodiversity. My sister and I went diving there, I guess that was already almost 15 years ago. It was fantastic. So, learning from you about Apo Island was one of the more formative examples that I came across in graduate school.
L: That's nice. Thank you.
T: I don't want to use up too much of your time, Louella, but I would like to ask you: in all of your different adventures in the Philippines, big and small, talking to fishermen and convincing your way onto fishing boats in the open ocean, what's one of the most amazing things you've experienced or seen? Maybe it's a particular species or behavior or something that you learned. I know this is a very probably difficult question because you've seen a lot, but what is one thing that stands out to you?
L: Actually, looking back, there were like several points. The first was when I snorkeled. The first time I put on a snorkel and saw these parrotishes - so very colorful and so many of them. So I spent all day snorkeling. I didn't even eat anything until it got hot, just snorkeling around and it's like, oh, the underwater is so much more beautiful than the land. You could see all these just amazing colors. So that was the part that really stood out.
And also when we would go out to do surveys. Just to see that, you know, sky merging with the water. It just gives you that kind of really in-the-moment happiness in a sense.
And then seeing, oh, a leatherback turtle right in front, like close up, so close. And it crossed the path of our boat, and our boat was not that big. And just to see it out there, big and in clear, mirror-like water in the south of Palawan in Balabac. It was just mesmerizing. It's just so amazing to see the size of it.
And also…oh, there’s a lot more… the group of killer whales! A big group of killer whales in the south, and there were just so many of them. And… I actually have a lot of those points. The sperm whales, too. In Bohol Sea, there were probably 50 or even 70 of them.
T: Oh my gosh, you need to write an autobiography, Louella!
L: Just clear water and calm, almost like, you know, oil, Beaufort zero. And just sperm whales, like pairs of them. Like on the surface, as far as you could see. It was, like, things that I never expected, that you can never expect to see.
T: I don't think there's many people who have seen like things like that, Louella; it's really amazing.
If you have time, I do have one last question. Is that OK? So, hearing you talk about these amazing experiences, and thinking back to when my relationship with the Philippines started, you know, only about 15 years ago: I've seen some incredible things there and had some beautiful moments in nature. But every time I go back, I always have this sadness, seeing how much more impacted natural areas are. And even in the cities, some of the development is kind of nice, like, “oh, we have nicer coffee shops now! It's easier to run your errands at the mall!” But it, it definitely feels heavy in my heart.
I'm wondering: this is your home country. You've seen so much of its natural beauty, and you've seen so much of the change. What is your feeling about the future of conservation? And - I'm sorry, that was a depressing question, but: you've also been instrumental in inspiring and training future generations of people to contribute to conservation. So when you think about this question of “what is the outlook for marine mammals, marine conservation, conservation in general,” what are some of the thoughts that go through your head?
L: Yeah, yeah. So actually there's some kind of a divided feeling that I have every time I go back home. At one end, I was so happy, just like I mentioned earlier, to see all the sanctuaries reaching their potential and then now how they are really good coral reef areas, on the one side. And then on the other side, as you said, you see all these developments going on. I think we're just one of the many countries where a lot of reclamation projects are going on. And I see that in just in Dumaguete, a lot of intertidal areas have been converted into roads, and then you have seawall and seawall after seawall. And they still want to continue it, even increase that even more. So you’ve totally lost the beach.
And so the natural environment, the natural ecosystems, it's been replaced. So that part is kind of sad in a way. And it's kind of a mixed situation. It's kind of a mixed thing: there's some improvement, because now we don't hunt whales, now we don't kill dolphins. And it was almost at the brink of turning bycatch into directed catch, because I talked to a fisherman, actually, that was my cooperator in the 90s. And I found him again in 2017. And we didn't recognize each other! So I went back to the same route. I used to leave, you know, those Instamatic cameras, those plastic cameras, I used to leave it with them so they could take pictures of the bycatch and everything. And I taught them how to measure and to collect data, like the numbering, the measurements and so on. So, I saw him again. And he told me, “Oh, you know, about 25 years ago, there was this girl who came here and talked about…” I was like, “That was me!” “So that was you!”
And so, yeah. “And she left me a camera,” and so on. And so I asked him about what it was like already. And then he admitted that they were actually chasing - because he had driftnets - they were actually at that time, chasing dolphins to catch them. So they were a bycatch in a way. Yeah, he said that, “Well, we used to really get them before because, you know, there's not enough fish anymore.” So, they were selling dolphins and training people to eat them, because people didn't want to eat them to start with. There was this transition because fish catches were declining. So he said that they intended to capture dolphins. But he said in a matter of fact way: “Oh, we don't chase them anymore because, you know, we can't sell them anymore. And besides, we might get penalized if they see.”
And so, yeah, “Before we used to really chase them.” So at that time we called them bycatch, but it was like on the brink of becoming directed. So in that sense, it's good now because we don't have - even bycatch, it has declined because I think they try to avoid bycatch because they don't want to get in trouble – no more directed hunting. And also the coral, some of them have recovered. But on the other hand, you have this other side, that more areas that were OK before are being destroyed by reclamation.
And I think in a way, I'm always an optimist. In a way, I think we can still do something, because it's now spreading, the idea of conservation. In the past you talk about conservation, and it was said, “Oh yeah, we cannot afford that. That's only for rich countries. It's a luxury.” But always I thought that it is a necessity. It's not a luxury for third world countries, for developing countries. It's a necessity for us because we depended so much for food in the environment.
So now people don't look at it as a luxury anymore. The minds are starting to change: “Oh, yeah, we need that.” But of course, every so often there are big money influences. I saw some of my students who are now occupying big positions of the university and really fighting for conservation and having that interest and energy. And so it feels good. It feels hopeful.
And we have also a plan, a long term plan... we could probably send some of those into the important offices, get that kind of thinking into important offices. Because once they are there, they have the power to change policies. So in a way it's hard to counter development, but maybe there is some kind of a compromise that could be could be met. Sometimes, that's the problem too, because some sometimes it's very hard to compromise, but in other times the alternative could be worse.
T: Well, that made me feel a little more optimistic, listening to you and having that that longer view perspective of how many things have improved substantially. And I think I tend to lose sight of that. So that was helpful for me anyway.
L: Yeah, we need encourage more students and support more students.
T: Well, thank you, Louella! I took a little longer than I planned to, but it was so interesting. I got to hear new things from you, even though we've gotten to spend some nice time together in the field. So I really enjoyed hearing your your stories and your answers.
L: Thank you and thank you for giving me this opportunity.
T: Of course! I think the Philippines has the highest representation on this podcast so far. No surprise!
L: We have quite a a lot more now compared to before, students who are working and people who are working on marine mammals and conservation. And I think all of them are very energetic.
T: You need to be! Well, maraming salamat po! I look forward to seeing you soon in San Diego,and hopefully not too long from now in the Philippines, maybe.
L: Thank you, Tara
T: Thank you, Louella. Bye!
OUTRO
Wow, so that was Dr. Louella Dolar. You can probably see now why she is so admired and adored by those she has mentored and worked closely with. I really enjoy my time and conversations with her. I feel like I always learned something fascinating, if not astounding, right? And I just find it kind of wonderful, in every sense of the word, to think on all that she's seen and experienced at the frontier of marine conservation, particularly marine mammal conservation in the Philippines. It's just awe-inspiring.
And the fact that someone with her perspective, her expertise, finds glimmers of hope in the conservation outlook for the Philippines, well, that's humbling to me. if Dr. Louella Dolar finds reasons to be hopeful, then who am I to be a grumpy pessimist about things, right? So thank you so much, Louella.
I do also want to say that this podcast in no way endorses young researchers, shall we say, strategically persuading commercial fishing boats to let them aboard. I think that would be much more difficult and dangerous these days. I'm not saying that it was particularly tame or safe when Louella was doing it. But yeah, take, take the inspiration with precautions because Louella is one of a kind. I don't think there's many people who can imitate what she's done.
I also want to quickly apologize for the fact that I sounded, maybe, possibly, a little high during this interview. As I was editing it, I heard a lot of like, mindless responses, like: “wow… wow…wow… yeah…yeah…” and I just don't have the bandwidth to edit all of those out. And I was not, you know, mentally altered by substances. I was merely in the process of moving apartments, or looking for an apartment, and getting over jet lag. And just with how the sound quality worked out, a lot of my sort of meaningless exclamations did drown out some of what Louella was saying. And I do apologize for that. I was definitely alert in terms of paying attention, you know, to what she was saying, because it was so gripping. But my body couldn't quite manage responding in in the most, let's say, meaningful way.
Anyway, I still thought it was a great conversation, entirely because of Louella. I learned a lot, even after knowing her for so many years. Just having this time to sit down and chat really was a wonderful opportunity to learn more from her, and I imagine the same is true for you.
As ever, if you liked this episode, which I'm sure you did because she's amazing, or if you like this entire project, please do the usual: like, comment (I really love the comments), share, review, subscribe. And definitely also the sharing part - if you have to choose among those, I'd say comment and share, please! I've also already received my first donation for Season 2. Thank you very much - you know who you are (I should really ask people if they want their names mentioned, because I'm happy to mention the names).
Thank you again for being with me. Thank you for your enthusiasm as I pick this back up. It really helps a lot. Doing something like this is such a leap of faith in like, “oh, I think I have something of value to offer. Are people gonna like it? Are people gonna like me?” So I appreciate you. All right. This is the least interesting part of this episode. I'm gonna end it here. Once again, maraming, maraming salamat po, Louella, you're amazing (oh, did I mention that Louella also speaks several dialects from the Philippines? Just an amazing human being). So thank you, Louella. And thanks to all of you for being with us.
As ever, I'm leaving you with the song The Green Touch by Myanmar musicians Soe Moe Thwin, Zyan Htet, and Min Min. Take care.
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