KEY TOPICS:
The importance of formative field immersion opportunities for youths in conservation, e.g. Youth Conservation Corps, AmeriCorps
The privilege of witnessing natural places, and the responsibility for sharing our observations of how they're changing
Connecting to conservation of a place as an "outsider" compared to places linked to your heritage
Moving away from the traditional conservation career path
Communications and marketing - the powers of persuasion! - and the skills, organization, and dedication required to effectively engage
INTRODUCTION
Hello everyone, and welcome back to Conservation Realist. And once again, there has been quite the interlude between episodes. And what can I say? This summer just keeps surprising me with the sheer amount of things that I need to squeeze into 24 hours in a day. Well, okay, let's say however many hours I sleep, subtracted from 24. But I have managed to edit this episode and get it to you. So I'm really happy about that.
This is episode 11. And it's a conversation with my friend Chris Johns. And - brace yourselves - he does terrestrial conservation work. I know. We have a sudden, swift shift from marine conservation into the terrestrial realm.
And actually, I was just thinking the other day, I don't know that I ever introduce myself in these episodes, or if I do, it's fairly rare. I am Dr. Tara Sayuri Whitty. I'm sure you've been able to gather that by now if you've been listening along. During this gap between episodes, I was invited to give a talk as part of the Hatfield Marine Science Center's summer seminar series up at Oregon State University. Unfortunately, I didn't have the time to physically go up there, but I was able to deliver the talk via Zoom. I'm quite pleased with the talk. It was kind of a new packaging of ideas that I haven't really ever presented in that way in kind of the formal-ish talk platform. And I just posted a link to it on Substack earlier this week. So if you'd like to check that out, it's basically about why talking about the quote unquote human dimensions of conservation is actually quite a misleading way of engaging with what is actually the kind of defining nature of conservation, which is humanity. So yeah, check that out if that sounds interesting.
So back to Mr. Chris Johns. I was looking up grant opportunities for my colleagues in Myanmar for the Myanmar Coastal Conservation Lab several months back, cruised by the National Geographic grants pages and who should I see in the photo of their website banner but Mr. Chris Johns hiking intrepidly through what looks like a very damp rainforest. And so I was like, well, how about that? So I just I sent him an email - it had been a while since we caught up. And so that was the genesis of this conversation!
He and I actually met in the Philippines, gosh, over 11 years ago. It was 2012. I was finishing up my Fulbright there, doing research for my dissertation. And I happened to be in Manila for the last few weeks of my time in country after being in much more remote field sites. And I don't know how many of you have been to Manila in April... it's miserably, oppressively hot and humid.
I was crashing on the futon of a very generous friend in Manila, and there was air conditioning in his apartment, but I was still really agitated by the heat. Also, it had been several months since I had surfed despite being in a country that has beautiful waves! None of those waves were particularly near my field sites, and I didn't have a board with me, and I also just didn't have the time, but I was feeling really antsy. I really wanted to get into that ocean.
By coincidence, through the same friend whose apartment I was staying in, my sister, who'd been out in the Philippines supporting my work for a few months, had been there a few weeks prior and connected with one of his friends, who had this really successful travel blog and she was a surfer and so she had write-ups on her blog about different surf spots. And my sister had connected us via Facebook being like, "hey, I think you guys would get along," but we'd never met in person.
But yeah, here I was some weeks later, sweltering and miserable in Manila. And I was like, oh yeah, that woman has this website that has some stuff about surfing. Maybe I could do, you know, get a bus out of town and hit up the closest spot. And I really enjoyed her blog and so I sent her a message on Facebook and was like, hey, this is awesome. I'm going to use this information and get out of town. And she said, "you know, I'm actually heading out of town this weekend with friends to go surfing - come join us! I'm at some event at this hotel, at this fancy hotel in Manila. Come meet me there and we'll leave from there."
And so I show up there and she's there with one of her friends, who happens to be Mr. Chris Johns! We both bonded being Americans in the Philippines, although he is of Filipino ancestry, he's a Filipino American (and I am not). And he's just a very gregarious, easy to get to know guy. We had this kind of whirlwind getting-to-know-each-other time of an overnight drive to Baler, surfing, surfing, surfing, hammock napping, surfing, sleeping, surfing, surfing, surfing, driving back and hanging out a couple of times in Manila after that. I think we've only really met in person maybe once after that in Hawaii. Those of you who work in this field internationally will know these kinds of friendships, right? You meet, you have a lot in common, you get along great. And then perhaps you see each other again in two years or four years or whenever you happen to have overlapping field seasons, and sites, or conferences or workshops.
A lot of his experience has been in Hawaii, including Maui, and I'm really not in any particular position to speak on this with any kind of authority or particular wisdom, but I do want to acknowledge how heartbreaking the tragic fires in Maui have been and it's just it's definitely shocking and there's a lot to be said in there about climate change and social justice and colonization and I'm certainly not someone who has sufficient expertise to even broach that here but I did want to make some mention of that.
I've actually spent a little bit of time in Hawaii myself, mainly the Big Island in Kauai, and that was as part of a field semester abroad during summer when I was an undergraduate student, and it really stuck with me. That was really my first immersive experience in nature from the point of view of learning about field work and learning about ecosystems. Honestly, really my first time camping ever. My family never got around to doing those kind of camping trips, my first time backpacking. And this kind of immersion was really life-changing for me and so important, sure, in helping me pursue a career in conservation, but more than that, really important in shaping me professionally beyond any particular field, but kind of more broadly, in how I see and approach situations. It teaches you things that you simply can't learn just in the classroom. And that's one reason why I put a lot of effort when I when I had the privilege of designing a training program for my young colleagues in Myanmar, to focus a lot on getting them opportunities for immersion.
And Chris, similarly - I'm really glad he speaks about that in this conversation. And this is something that will really tie in with the following episode, Episode 12, which was kind of an unexpected opportunity for an interview. I was contacted by a project which you'll learn about, which really focuses on getting young underrepresented people out into these immersive experiences.
We also talk a bit about, you know, both of us have kind of left the traditional career path of conservationists. And so we speak a little bit about that. And you know, that departure from that path isn't necessarily permanent - for Chris, anyway. It's probably a little more permanent for me since again, I'm committing a lot of my time and intention to working with nonspeaking individuals. But I think it's useful for people to hear that there is life outside of academia, there's life outside the traditional big conservation NGOs. You can indeed work in a number of interesting ways toward conservation.
And we also talk about the privilege of being a witness to nature, the privilege of being a part of learning about the ecosystems and nature in places to which you don't have any particular claim of heritage and how that compares to being in a place where you do feel that connection of heritage.
And...you know what, I think I'm back to my super long introductions! So I'm going to wrap it up there. We have this song from these talented young musicians in Myanmar that you hear every episode, Soe Moe Thwin, Zyan Htet, and Min Min, the Green Touch. Then we'll jump into the conversation! Thank you so much for being with me.
[MUSIC]
TRANSCRIPT
T: So just as a preface: I, for whatever reason, could not fall asleep last night. So I am running on fumes and might not make the most sense in the world. I guess I was just so excited that I was going to talk to you that I couldn't hunker down and get to some sound slumber!
C: That's totally fine. I'm sorry that happened. I know how you feel. I'm taking tomorrow and Friday off, so this is my Friday, and I'm totally exhausted. But we'll make the most of it.
T: Cool. Sorry you're exhausted, but I'm glad that we're able to make this time to chat. So I'll just dive right into it, and I'm really curious to hear your answer, because I know part of it, but I really don't know that much about it. Can you share a bit about your experience with conservation and the different ways you've engaged with the field?
C: So my start to conservation, I kind of track all the way back to my sophomore year in high school, when I was sort of taking environmental science classes. And my aunty, who lives in Hawaii and has lived there for a long time, sent me this Hawaii Conservation Corps pamphlet and was like, "Hey, this could be up your alley - you'd get to come to Hawaii for the whole summer." And fast forward to that summer, I ended up working as a team member on the Hawaii Youth Conservation Corps team on the island of Oahu.
It was a super formative experience for me. It kind of set the stage for really keeping culture and human influence part of conservation in the picture for me at an early phase. From there (I'll fast forward through these), I worked as a team leader for Hawaii Youth Conservation Corps, then I was an AmeriCorps intern for about a year at a large preserve on the island of Maui, then where we met, Tara, in the Philippines - I spent a year in the Philippines volunteering with various conservation groups - NGOs, a little bit of work with biologists and scientists out there. And then from there, I started my PhD at the University of Florida studying Hawaiian insects. That work had a bit of a conservation angle to it. And kind of around that time, I've spent a good amount of time going around the tropics and have become acquainted with biodiversity in different places and seen how people work to conserve it in different places. So I have a local focus on Hawaii but a little bit of experience elsewhere in the tropics.
T: And in the Philippines, you were doing some videography, right? Or am I remembering it wrong.
C: Yeah, a little bit of videography. I had started to get really into photography actually before I moved to Hawaii and started working out there. But when I was working in Hawaii, I realized I had this amazing device to capture things that I was seeing, and I happened to be in places and seeing things that a lot of people don't get to see. So I started falling in love with photography and videography there, and kind of brought those two interests to the Philippines when I moved there. So I was using photo and video work as a documentary and story-telling tool for what I was seeing out there. It was a big part of my time in the Philippines, capturing that footage and imagery.
T: I love how you mentioned that you were in a position to see things and experience things that a lot of people don't get to, and I love that you recognize the privilege in that and took it upon yourself to try to share those experiences more broadly.
C: I'm happy you noted the privilege aspect of it, because that's certainly a part of it. Not everybody gets a chance, I mean speaking specifically in Hawaii - there are barriers to people experiencing native biodiversity. Mostly bureaucratic barriers, but also geographic barriers. It's just hard to get to some of these places.
T: And also one thing that I appreciated when you were mentioning your experience and background was how, of your early experience, you called it "formative." And that's another thing where I think privilege comes in. It's so great that these programs were available and you were able to access them at a pretty young age to get you started on this path.
C: I really would not be anywhere near where I'm at without the Youth Conservation Corps program. And I think it's nationwide, I think they have chapters in most states. But the Hawaii one (I mean, of course I think that it's special), I really do think that it's unique, because they're really taking a lot of local youth - many of which are native Hawaiian - and acquainting them with native biodiversity in a way that's going to land them a job, which is important in Hawaii. So I have nothing but praise for that program.
T: That's so cool. And you'd mentioned that having so much of your early experience in Hawaii was a good way to see the link, the importance of the link between culture and human influence and conservation: maybe, in addition to that or elaborating on that more, what are some lessons from your experiences in conservation that have really stuck with you over the years?
C: I think that looking across my experiences, and having the great fortune to see a lot of different landscapes (mostly terrestrial) around the tropics, I think the biggest thing that's stood out to me is: it's true, the natural world is really incredible, and it's also true that it's changing critically. And an addendum to that is that the reasons for that change are super complex and hard to understand. And just kind of having, throughout my work, I've really had those ideas crystallized and realized for me in my mind.
It's abstract, for a lot of people, to hear "nature's great" or "it's changing" or "we need to protect it," but I think seeing it with my own two eyes is the greatest lesson I could have taken away from my experience.
T: Totally. I resonate with that, probably more on the marine counterpart. The landscapes - or seascapes, more like - that I was able to witness as a college student studying abroad and visiting different field sites, and being able to revisit some of them over the years, and kind of at first in an abstract way being like, "I'm not seeing as much as I used to see," or "it just doesn't seem as vibrant as places I went to ten years ago." And sure, some of that might have seemed more bright and shiny because I was less experienced and younger. But over time, it's this very sobering realization that these things have changed, and it's not just in one place or a few places... it's really kind of the norm now. I know that's a source of despair for a lot of people working in this field.
C: Yeah, for sure. I'm glad that you share your experience here, because one reason I think it's so important for me to realize this is so I can have conviction around making that statement to others that the natural world is important and it's changing. Because I feel like there's a mismatch sometimes between people that don't work closely with the land and people that do work closely with the land, about how close that connection and understanding and sensitivity can be to a place. I feel like people who don't spend a lot of time with particular places, like natural landscapes, can ask the question "how do you know" or "are you sure?" It's a big world out there and it's abstract in other people's minds. But for people who get to spend a lot of time in one place observing it, it's like, oh yeah. It's pretty apparent! It's changing.
T: Absolutely. I mean, some of my earliest and most memorable teachers of that were people who I interviewed, once my research started including interviews. You know, talking to fishers and hearing them say, in the Philippines: "Oh, there used to be a very clear transition season between the two monsoon seasons amihan and habagat, it was a pretty reliable time to go fishing with good weather and calm waters, and that's disappearing," for example. These are people who are living the realities of a changing climate, while others who are much more privileged and much more removed from that direct experience and direct dependence on natural resources are playing it like it's a game, like it's something that's up for debate.
I like what you said about having conviction in being able to be confident in what you're observing and in the importance of protecting nature and protecting the environment. I'll probably come back to this in a little bit once I ask you about your current work, but I think for me sometimes it's been hard to strongly promote biodiversity conservation as an urgent matter when there's so many other very urgent matters that are affecting humans, in many cases, more severely perhaps and more dramatically. When you start talking about biodiversity conservation, I think people might be thinking about pandas or dolphins, and there's people out there dealing with famine and disease and war. So I think there definitely can be a little bit of a struggle to hold firm to the belief, the understanding that nature is integrated in human well-being, even if it's not as obvious as these other more obviously catastrophic impacts on human lives.
Yeah but rewinding a little bit: so I love telling people the story of how we met. I don't know if you remember it exactly but it was basically a very rushed surf getaway from Manila to...where did we go?
C: Baler, I think.
T: Yes! And it was through a kind of a just funny circumstantial web of mutual acquaintances and friends. But as you mentioned, you had been in the Philippines, you know, tagging along - or maybe tagging along is a dismissive way of saying it - rather, visiting with different projects and, you know, taking video of it, documenting it. And I'd really love to hear a bit about what that experience was like for you, in addition to learning more about nature and the kind of work people are doing for nature in the Philippines, also that kind of connection to your roots.
C: Yeah, I think you nailed it. I was certainly mostly tagging along. I mean, you know, carrying my own things and trying to be as helpful as possible with, for example, like data collection on bird transects, but mostly there to learn, which I'm really grateful to all the people that had me along for that. And I think I'll just pause on that point and say that all the people that I was able to spend time with were really excited to share their work with an outsider. So I, you know, I didn't always feel like I was mostly taking from the experience. I do think that there was, yeah, a little bit of shared experience there. But so coming, I had left working in conservation in Hawaii, and then immediately went off to this year in the Philippines.
And the reason that I went was, while I was working in Hawaii, I go this really strong appreciation for how native Hawaiians think about and care for their natural environments. There's also the story there in Hawaii about how that connection has been severed through almost losing the language (well, there's a lot of reasons why that connection has weakened over time), but it's something where there's been this renaissance of Native Hawaiians becoming reconnected to their native biodiversity.
And being around that, it made it really clear to me that for these people, nature was their home, and nothing's more important than home. Nature was their identity and nothing's more important than identity. They're all kind of wrapped into the same thing. And in that way, like it was the easiest, I mean, maybe easy is not the right word, but for lack of a better term, like it was the easiest place in the world to like, you know, quote unquote, like convince a populace that like, it's worth it to protect native biodiversity. And it was just also really inspiring to like see that connection and be around those people.
At the same time, while I was there, I, you know, I'm not from Hawaii, I have a lot of
connections and like some roots in Hawaii, but I'm not native Hawaiian.
And I always felt this kind of little bit of separation between like, you know, just how much I could care about that place and conserving it next to like a native Hawaiian, where caring about that landscape existential, in a lot of ways, like in a deeper way. And that brought up the question in my mind, like, well, is there a place like where I could care that much about, in that same kind of way.
And my family's from the Philippines. And so that was kind of the logical point of exploration to try to get to is go back to the Philippines. And I know nothing of the place, aside from how I've been going there as a kid. I know nothing about the biodiversity, like, is that something that I could learn about? And learn about the people who are doing that work, and the people that depend on those natural landscapes. That was, you know, I had the experience that year of kind of going all over the country and working with all different kinds of people.
Of course, related to like my initial pursuit, like the, I had a lot of also formative experience, like working with indigenous people across the archipelago. And I think, I think I've probably mentioned this to you before, but I, you know, my experience was, it's challenging. It was challenging in the Philippines because that place is in a little bit of a different place than Hawaii when it comes to conservation. And not to say... like, Hawaii has a lot to be worried about when it comes to conservation. Like they've got, you know, every problem in the world. Looking at the Philippines, I found that to be a little bit more challenging of a situation.
And maybe I felt that because I did have that kind of deep connection to it. But that's, you know, I'm still honestly, like processing how I feel about biodiversity in the Philippines, and in conservation there. And just generally , the natural environment and what's going to happen to it, and my relationship to that work. So yeah, it's a little bit complex.
T: Yeah, totally. I mean, these are these are not things that have easy answers. I really resonate with what you're saying because I just got back from a trip visiting family in Japan. It was not centered on conservation at all, but... we moved from there when I was six. And it was supposed to be a temporary move.
And my dad was Irish. So we're not American, I never felt really American, but also not particularly Japanese or Irish, just as in between. And as you know, most of my research has been in other countries, like no, to which I have no tie in terms of my ancestry, like similar, I guess, to your experience in Hawaii. And it is kind of this, you want to be really sensitive to what role you play, especially when you're working alongside people who are actually from that area and do have that deeper tie.
And I've totally struggled with: I feel passionately about this, but like, there has, you know, there has to be boundaries. And, you know, it's at a certain point, it's not for outsiders like me to say how something goes. And so kind of trying to define my professional role in a way that's respectful and doesn't kind of reek of a privileged neocolonial attitude has been kind of an ongoing calibration.
C: Yeah, I can imagine. And yeah, I appreciate that aspect of your career.
T: Yeah, but um, I mean, fair enough to you, like feeling like conservation seems tougher in the Philippines. I mean, not that I haven't any experience in Hawaii, but there are a lot of a lot of strengths in the Philippines, but definitely a lot of obstacles. And you might well know this, it's one of the most dangerous countries in the world to be an environmental activist. And so it's amazing that you were able to go there and have that experience, getting to know your ancestral home, let's say, in a more deep way, and again, in a way that not many people get to see it.
C: Yeah, I'll say that I'm thankful for the experience because, I mean, that archipelago is it's incredible, like both land and marine, and human culture, like it's just, it's so, so special. And it's also so threatened, all those things are so threatened. And, you know, there's not enough resources to work on those things. You know, back to our earlier point in this conversation, like there's, there's a lot of larger or, you know, more visible, close, acute problems to work on.
T: Exactly. So another thing I'm curious to hear a little more about, and you touched on this a little when we caught up some weeks ago, but you aren't working in a full time conservation job anymore. So I'd love to hear more about kind of what you're doing now and your decision to kind of cast your net a bit wider than than the conservation field.
C: Yeah, I'm glad you asked this question because it's I always appreciate the opportunity to try to figure out how I got here. So I mentioned how I had a camera in Hawaii, essentially, I kind of grew interested in like documenting what I was seeing. And like for the purpose of like sharing it with others so that they could care like I did, like the people that I was working with did. And that media kind of continued to grow throughout my PhD, I continued to shoot photographs of my research, I ended up making a video and like around that time, you know, like starting to get a little bit more acquainted with the field of science communication.
And from there, broadening out into related fields, fields that science communication is a subset of, like marketing communications, or user experience, or, you know, general creative work. I kind of used science communication to jump off into the world that I'm in now, which is a little bit broader than helping people care about nature through media. I kind of do that exact same thing right now, but a little bit broader, like working on behalf of science, essentially. So science initiatives, helping people improve public understanding and support of science, essentially through media.
And so the company that I work for now is called RTI International. We're a federal contractor and we work with every government agency under the sun. So like everybody from DOD to EPA, to CDC, NIH. And I work in our communications division. We service government clients, and usually government science initiatives with communications, broadly. That includes strategy, user experience and user interface design, digital product development, like classic traditional marketing and communications campaigns, video production kind of like every tool you could have to like communicate a message to somebody and influence or persuade their behavior or their attitudes on a certain belief - we do that for government clients.
T: That's really cool.
C: Yeah I dig it.
T: You must be learning a lot.
C: Yeah. I've learned a lot. And I've learned a lot about, you know, how to talk about science and how to, how to communicate with, with members of the public or any general audience, and try to get them to do X, Y, and Z or feel X, Y, and Z. We use a lot of the same tools as the advertising world. And you know, another name for this field is social marketing.
So it's, it's a little interesting. You know, there's there's a lot of power that you wield in that world, and responsibility. But I do think that, if you believe in the work of our clients, we have budgets that support really great - our great work - for great causes.
T: Oh, that's a nice position to be in!
C: Yeah, it is really nice! And a lot of the products that I support right now are government public health initiatives. But one thing that I would love to turn our, you know, powers upon is topics related to the environment. And conservation, of course, too - that's been a little bit of a harder, I guess, pool of funding to locate.
But it is still a love of mine. And I really think that like the tools that this organization has, my colleagues have, could really do something special with media around the environment.
T: Yeah, I mean, I love that you... I love so much about this, but I love that you recognize the power and the responsibility involved. I had this thought, not particularly profound, but new to me in my head. I think I was listening to a podcast about misinformation campaigns, and kind of, it struck me, we often hear the phrase, history is written by the victors.
But it's also true that those who are writing the history as it happens, those who control the narrative, are also more likely to be the victors. So I think that's where we are with social media being so prevalent is, you know, in the scramble to control a narrative, we're really seeing a kind of a power struggle.
But I trust you. So you're one person who I'm not worried about having having kind of access to those kind of resources and power!
C: Well, I totally hear you. And I think what I aspire to do in my position is be as narrow with audience and like surgical as I can with a cause, like a local cause and messaging. Like, I mean, TBD on whether that happens - it kind of takes a lot to like be that obsessed and dedicated and focused with, you know, projects because of, I don't know, all the time people are like "the audience is everybody," you know. But I guess I'm saying that I think there's a little bit more safety in, at least for me, not working too much in the big nationwide campaigns and focusing where you can really clearly see the impact of the input that you're having.
T: Yeah, I mean, that's, that's kind of the direction I relate most to and I think that most people would find it easy to relate to is... I guess the way of describing it would be relatively small, actionable steps. And, you know, you feel like you are achieving something concrete, and also laying the foundation for further steps along the way.
C: Exactly.
T: So you mentioned, you know, really wishing you could wanting to take this more in a conservation direction. Is there anything in particular that you've learned from your current work that you would love to see implemented more in the conservation field?
C: I mean, I think just generally the powers of marketing and communications. Like an understanding, and I use that term broadly to encompass so many different things. I would say that it's important for conservation to realize the vast contribution that the professionals with those skills and that kind of mindset can achieve. I would also say at the same time, it's important to know what it can't do, too, with conservation resources like being limited. You know, it's an investment that has some risk in it to, you know, try to precipitate change in the world through marketing and communications.
T: Is there something you learned about communications and marketing that surprised you or that you hadn't really thought of before you started working with RTI International?
C: I'm trying to think I mean. I would say that... there's a lot of people that work in marketing and communications. And there's a vast range of effectiveness. It's really hard to pin down impact. And it's not, you know, tied to the amount of money you spend, like, look at any Coca Cola ad you see. You know,
there's a chance that it convinced some portion of the population to execute the desired behavior, but not always. And there's, you know, a million other less effective brands behind that.
And so I think that coming to RTI, it became a little bit clearer to me that (or at least this is my opinion) marketing and communications, the domain itself, it's not something that always produces gold. You have to have talent and creative ideas and the space to, you know, think and do to, to achieve what you want to achieve. And that's the way I feel about it.
T: Yeah, I mean, I've certainly seen plenty of what seemed to me to be fairly poorly thought out campaigns for conservation.
But like, there is this one, I was just talking about this with someone: I was reading, like, Bon Appetit magazine (my brother collects them). And there was an ad, like a tourism ad for Georgia, which as you know, the state abbreviation is capital GA. And so it went, this is all written out, right? Because it's a magazine. It says, Ready, Set, Gah! (GA)
C: Oh, man. I mean, yeah, yeah.
T: That's not the most pertinent example. But it's the one that's on my mind.
C: No, I mean, it's a great example. Because it's like, as consumers who are inundated with marketing and advertising all the time, and probably just, like instinctually, human beings - like, our bullshit detectors are like pretty good when it comes to this kind of stuff. But that doesn't mean that, you know, fixing it is simple.
But I guess what I'm trying to say is it's really hard to do this work extremely well. And most people are not effective at what they're trying to do in this work. And so, that's kind of why I think that it's really important to, of course, engage with audiences throughout the creation process, but also try to bring people from end audiences, like end users and real people into the creative process.
Because, you know, like any field, we can kind of get sucked into how the field says we should do stuff and processes that don't really fit, rush things - that happens all the time.
T: Yeah! And I'm glad that you're in a position now where a lot of the projects you work on have a generous budget, although you mentioned the conservation budgets are a little harder to locate. I've found that when I do interact with communications teams in my work, they have all sorts of fantastic ideas, but they're always kind of hitting up against the fact that their work is often seen as an afterthought. I mean as in terms of, you know, engaging with donors and making like flashy two-page pamphlets or whatever, that's where I think they're well supported. But a lot of these folks want to actually be more directly involved in the projects themselves in the on-the-ground marketing to stakeholders. And unfortunately, it is often kind of seen as an afterthought or a luxury. So all those great ideas just aren't afforded the resources they need to actually be tested out in any kind of useful way.
C: Yeah, I completely agree. And it's really hard to draw a circle around or put marketing and communications in a bucket, in a silo, that doesn't touch anything else. If you're really trying to convince somebody to do something, you can't be limited to the tools in the field of communications. You know, you have to consider like everything else, every other possible interaction that you can have with this person to change their opinion or this audience to change their behavior. But yes, budgets are a big challenge. But yeah, also being an afterthought.
T: And you mentioned a little bit kind of, you know, the ideal is having a collaborative process with your audience, not just trying to impose something upon them that someone somewhere thought was a good idea. Is that something that you're able to do, you know, kind of go through this human centered design process in your work? Or is it kind of more of a rare luxury?
C: It is - I mean, that's one thing I love about RTI - is that a big part of our foundation is doing participatory research, co creation, human centered design. And we aspire to do that work and we do those exercises often or we use those frameworks often.
But for me, I think it's hard to reach the full potential of what that relationship can be like. And I speak about this mostly from the creative side of the house, like creative producing, creative media, graphic design, photography, video, animation, whatever, there are certain parts of that process where it's good to have the opinion of others and the input of others, the inspiration from others. And then there are times when like, you got to be the expert and make the best decision or move it to the next phase. And so for us, because we work on so many different types of, you know, products, big, small range and topics, long time period, short time period, it's really hard to know when the best times are to like engage audiences and what to ask them.
T: Yeah... [BEEP BEEP BEEP in the background] oh, that's a car alarm. Can you hear that?
C: Yeah, I can. No, no worries. Oh, there it's off.
T: [Sound of a train horn] And then there's a train coming by at least it's all happening at the same time.
Kind of similar to what we were saying about communications being treated as almost an afterthought is, I think, at least in terms of talking points, everyone's happy to agree, like in their keynote speeches or whatever, that these participatory processes are important. But when it comes to actually making space for those processes throughout like a project timeline, it's a very different story. And it sounds like that's something you can relate to.
C: Yeah, and it's really hard to plan around those things, because ultimately, you know, to get fully engaged in that process, like it changes the process a little bit.
And so it's really hard to, you know, put a plan together, put a timeline together, put a budget together for that type of relationship.
T: Yeah, absolutely. I can totally, totally relate to that. But taking a taking a kind of a step back now that you have spread your wings and entered this field that's got a bit of a more broad purview than conservation on its own: Would you ever go back to focusing on the conservation sector?
C: Yes, I mean, I would. I think I will always have an interest in working in conservation, as somebody in the field. That's always something that will sound interesting to me - who knows how it would work out, but I would love that. And when it comes to more of the current field that I'm in, and turning that to conservation, I still maintain some media related projects focused on conservation. I'm pretty dedicated to doing Hawaii stuff these days, just because that's kind of where I have that relationship. And it's where I'm most interested and all of my perspectives and skills and abilities like come from producing media about conservation in Hawaii. So I kind of just want to focus on doing that.
But yeah, I think, you know, those are the only two avenues that I can think of to like, get back into conservation. But I would love to.
T: Yeah, well, it would it would be to the field's benefit for sure to have more of you. And so on a related note, I'd already been thinking about getting in touch with you to chat with for this podcast: (A) because I enjoy talking with you, (B) because it had been a long time, and (C) I have very little representation from people with any kind of terrestrial background. And then what really prompted me to get in touch was I was looking up grant possibilities for the team I work with in Myanmar and I was on the National Geographic grants website and: there you were! Featured in the photo banner!
C: Crazy!
T: It was a sign! And you know, when when people hear that I've worked in conservation, I think it evokes a certain image in their head. And I won't lie, it's definitely an image I had of my future self at some point many, many years ago, the kind of National Geographic Adventurer, "Saving the World Through Intrepid Outings and Expeditions and Discoveries." You know, it's an image, right? So I'd love to hear your thoughts on how this image reflects what it's actually like to pursue this as a career. And, you know, you've experienced part of it, right? You're on the website, literally. Maybe put that into kind of a bit of context with the reality you've experienced.
C: Yeah. I think that, you know, Nat Geo is a, you know, content marketing organization. And one whose mission I really value, helping people form connections with the natural world. And they have to kind of sell that image, that content, they have to have lengaging content for readers, and they found one way to do that, which is through the brand that they currently have, which is all the things that you mentioned, like intrepid, expedition, discoveries, things.
And I mean, of course, that doesn't map one to one with how conservation or generally science is done. Like it's not a one-to-one map of even like intellectual merit or impact sometimes. I mean, there's a plenty of really incredible scientific and expedition-based work that National Geographic has been a huge part of.
T: Absolutely.
C: But, you know, there's a lot of both conservation and generally science work that just isn't part of the visual marketing that National Geographic is doing. And so yeah, I kind of feel different ways about it. Like I appreciate what they do. But at the same time, it's only one piece of the pie.
T: Yeah, I fully, fully relate with that. And I do think that, it's hard, I feel like I want a wider acceptance or acknowledgement of kind of the on-the-ground work and actions and the the nuance that goes into it. But those those aren't things that tend to be particularly eye-catching. So, you know, yeah, I mean, trying to sell the brand and promote promote these great projects, you gotta stick with what catches attention.
C:Right, right. Which is, you know, a story that's being felt like across science right now. And, you know, because this is a marketing initiative, you know, it's based around storytelling. But I'll also say that like, you know, National Geographic, when it comes to visual storytelling about, you know, discovery, nature, science, they really are, I think, on like the cutting edge of visual documentation, as well as their form of content, which is like long form story. And I'm really thinking about the magazine here, which is like the hallmark of their brand. But you know, they're, they're trying to push that boundary constantly. And the people that write and shoot for them are trying to push that boundary as well. And, you know, it may just be that these other projects that are equally worthy of attention, just haven't found the people to tell those stories yet in that, in that way.
T: Yeah, no, I like that perspective.
T: Thanks so much.
C: Yeah, it was great. Thank you for having me. And I love what you're doing here. And yeah, the questions were, were great. It's always nice to talk to you.
T: Yeah, it's nice to catch up. And I really appreciated having a catch up call with you round two, to dig a little deeper into what you're up to.
C: Anytime.
T: Cool. Well, yeah, hopefully it won't be so long before we catch up again. And yeah, good luck with all of that marketing, communications, changing the world through persuasion work you're up to.
C: Yes! Thank you. And you'll have to, you'll have to send me updates on what you're doing. I've got to find a way to stay in touch with you because after our last chat, it sounded like you were up to some really interesting stuff.
T: Yeah, of course. I think there's this thing called email.
C: Email. I don't know what it is, but it gives me goosebumps and I don't like it. I'm scared. Haha, yeah, email.
T: Well, have a lovely evening and thank you again.
C: Okay, thanks. Talk to you later!
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