KEY POINTS:
Investing in simple (and authentic) demonstrations of respect for the communities you work with - from the very beginning of your engagement - sets the stage for true collaboration
Conservation projects often immediately jump to “we need to fix/change behaviors,” but without taking time to truly understand local perspectives, values, and experiences; establishing a healthy dialogue of perspectives (including common ground as well as differences) is a better way to embark on community engagement
Substantial barriers exist for youths in Myanmar - whether urban or rural - in entering the field of conservation; with a burgeoning interest in conservation among Myanmar youth, this lack of accessible opportunities means that a lot of potential is missed
INTRODUCTION:
Hi everyone, and welcome to Conservation Realist! I’m Dr. Tara Sayuri Whitty, and I’m currently drinking an iced Americano with pumpkin spice cold foam, because it’s that strange time of year in San Diego where it’s still pretty hot, but all the stores are already pushing autumnal, October vibes upon us.
This episode is an interview with Wint Hte, and it is yet another episode on conservation in Myanmar. It always feels particularly important to share stories from that country. Obviously, it has figured prominently in my own personal and professional growth, and of course my work there resulted in having connections there, both in terms of my emotions but also in terms of people working in conservation. But there are two bigger reasons that I want to highlight:
The harsh reality of the political situation there – and I won’t say too much more on that, just out of an abundance of caution for my listeners there – and the dedication and resilience shown by my Myanmar colleagues are just astounding. And it’s frustrating – infuriating – to see funding, accolades, and international attention going to high profile conservation figures and organizations, and to often empty rhetoric, while there are so many people doing *real* work on the ground through incredibly difficult conditions who must struggle for funding, recognition, and other opportunities. I’d like for all of us who enjoy comparative privilege in this circumstance to sit with the discomfort of that dichotomy.
This conversation with Wint Hte (one of my former mentees) is similar to my previous interview with Yin Yin Htay (another former mentee and co-founder of the Myanmar Coastal Conservation Lab (MCCL) with Wint Hte and Aung Naing Soe) in that they share the fantastic, grounded work they’ve gone on to do with communities since we worked together. It’s so fulfilling to hear how they’ve grown into their respective paths, and how they continue to amplify opportunities and potential for other youths. The foundation of this was, largely, our work together from 2017 to 2019, and their previous training in design thinking and human-centered research with Point B Design + Training, but what they’ve gone on to do based on that foundation is so powerful. Long way of saying: investing in local capacity is critical to ensuring that positive impacts of time-bound projects are sustained and amplified over time. This is far more meaningful than any other work I’ve done in my career.
Some other background to orient you before we dive into the conversation:
Wint Hte was my first Myanmar field assistant during my postdoc, and he and the other MCCL co-founders grew to be my most important collaborators in my job with IUCN working on the Gulf of Mottama Project. We reference this project a lot. It was a large-scale, multi-sector consortium project working on livelihoods, governance, and biodiversity conservation. Wint Hte ended up working for IUCN for this project after I left.
The river he refers to when talking about Fisheries Conservation Zones (which I think I accidentally mention as Community Fisheries Zones, CFZs, because mistakes happen…) is the Sittaung River, on the border between Mon State and Bago Region
He earned his Master’s in Marine Environmental Protection from Bangor University as a Chevening Scholar, and prior to that had been involved with some YSEALI (Young Southeast Asia Leadership Initiative) programming
Also, if you’re listening, you’ll hear my brother Danny in the background – I recorded this while at his house – and he makes a guest appearance to say hi.
Alright, let’s finally get to it!
TRANSCRIPT
Tara: Well, it's nice to see you, Wint Hte! I just sort of recently realized that I didn't have any idea what you were doing after the Gulf of Mottama Project, so I'd love if you don't mind, can you share a little bit about the work you're doing now? With IUCN or otherwise.
Wint Hte: OK. So right now, so I'm kind of like working on the project of IUCN called BRIDGE (Building River Dialogue and Governance), which is about river conservation, water management, and the governance of river systems. So in Myanmar, I focus on the Salween Basin. There's a lot of division initiatives, but what I mostly work on is I'm leading a youth engagement project, or Salween Youth Program, which is about engaging with youths who are interested in water governance, water management, and river conservation. We provide trainings, and then after that, we are planning to provide mini grants to those youth groups and then they will be carrying out water related projects themselves.
T: Oh, that's really interesting. That's really cool
W: But you know, but like, it's a big shift, like, to be so totally close to the river.
T: Yeah, it is! And I don't actually have that much experience with river stuff myself, but there's so many interesting efforts in terms of building local capacity and power and accessing rights with regards to river governance. So that's really great that you're working in that area.
So this all happened I think after I left Myanmar and it's one of the things you’re involved in: can you explain to me what SOA Myanmar is?
W: So like SOA Myanmar, SOA is called like Sustainable Ocean Alliance, which is kind of a global initiative that's working on oceans and marine conservation and then like they have different hubs formed by youths in different countries or different locations. So SOA Myanmar is one of one of the groups of under like SOA Global, based in Myanmar.
T: And what do you do with that?
W: In the beginning, so we don't have that much activity. So right now, they provide small grants to the youths and then they can carry out different projects that they work on. So right now, the SOA Myanmar team currently just received a small grant, and they are working on developing a tool for youths about marine and coastal conservation, like a guidebook or something like that.
T: Thank you for filling in my knowledge gaps there! I was thinking today, when I was preparing for this conversation: even though I asked you these completely unrelated questions, what I was really curious to talk about with you today were the Community Fishery Zones (CFZs), because those happened after I left Myanmar. And it's the kind of work that, well, establishing such zones I know about in theory – I've evaluated projects that do it – but I actually haven't been involved in doing that myself. And I thought it was just really cool, both with you and Yin Yin and the other MCCL people, I love that you guys are now able to teach me things from your experience. I think it's really a nice progression.
So yeah, would you be able to just chat a little bit about what those Community Fishery Zones were for the Gulf of Mottama?
W: OK, so I think maybe it's a bit like a long story! I will explain about the concept of it a little bit. The Gulf of Mottama Project is a huge conservation initiative. Like it has lots of sectors and everything, right? And then we started out like with co-management and the ecosystem approach to fishery management and everything.
But after 2021, everything just changed. So that's why we are thinking about, okay, so we should focus more on the local capacity and also authorize local participation more about in conservation and fisheries management. That's why we don't really have any idea what we want to focus on. So that's why we started out as an assessment called like “social potential assessment,” which literally is: we visited our potential fishery conservation related areas, which were identified by FFI. And then we visited to those villages and then we asked questions about the leadership potential, their interest in conservation, and then the approach they would like to implement to conserve fish and lots of things.
And then we listed out very prominent two areas that can be like the very good starting point to focus on fish conservation. And then we're talking with the communities and then we figure out, OK, those community-based fishery conservation zones could be one of the answers for the fishery conservation in that area. So that's what we started on.
T: And in that assessment, were there pretty obvious differences between communities in terms of their social potential towards management?
W: Yeah, there's a lot of like huge differences. We mostly focus on like leadership and then social cohesion and interest in conservation and also like potential for conservation. I think most of the villages, they all have the same scores regarding the interest in conservation and participation in conservation. That's interesting. But I think the most differences is the strong leadership potential. And like the social cohesion, they have some differences. And I think two of the villages that we focus on, they are very prominent leaders as well as very good social cohesion, like when they solve a problem. So they have practices of working together and then doing general meetings and so on. I think that these are the major differences.
T: Oh, that's really interesting. I mean, even some of the earliest work we did together, we were looking at some of these issues. So you might remember that, even though I haven't done much work on it, the idea of “how do you find and support and sustain good leadership” (because we know that it's important), how do you actually work on that, is really interesting to me.
So you picked the sites that you thought had really good potential. And then how did you go through the process of establishing these zones? Was it a consultation? Was it ongoing series of discussions? What did that look like?
W: So we could see this is really good synchronized efforts of our team and also the communities, because we included different forms of meetings. Sometimes we do like a group, very huge, consultation meetings and sometimes we just go visit to each fishing household and then we share the results from the research or the results from the consultation meeting and then ask their opinion about it. Then we document it and then we present it back in the huge consultation meeting. So it's a mix of a mix of activities.
But it's really long process because we start with the assessment, and after that, we do the very huge community meeting where we invited everyone. So even when we do invitation, we visited almost every household in the communities and then we asked them, okay, we're going to do something like that, “so are you able to join? so you can bring like your wife or you can join yourself?” and stuff like that, like “what is your available time?”
It's a great shout out like to my team because they did so well and they're very passionate about that.
And then the community, they feel totally different because somebody came and visited them. They value that really. And then we made very good invitation cards and then we visited. And then they bring this invitation card and then in the meeting say, “This is our first time being invited like that, and then we feel like we are very important. So why not? We'll join this meeting!” and stuff like that.
So, you know, that kind of feeling - I don't know about others, but we feel so grateful that the efforts paid off, because participation is really valuable, right? Even when they join in those large, like 60 peoples, 80 peoples consultation meetings, so instead of in the large group discussions, we try to make very small group discussions, about six, seven people, so that everybody can speak out their perspectives, and then have the chance to share it within the groups and then to different groups. So I think it's a mixture of different things that we engage with - we try our best to get opinion from different social groups in order to form a decision or a management plan.
T: That's really great! I don't know if we encountered this in our earlier work during my postdoc - it's definitely happened to me in my postdoc at some point, and during my PhD –sometimes after we use 30 minutes to an hour of someone's time, sometimes they'll say “Thank you for listening to us.” Which was very sweet, but it also made me really sad in a way. I'm thinking about the invitations: how much it meant to them. It shows how left out or marginalized, that just even showing that little bit of respect mattered so much. So it's really great that it worked out so well for you all. And I think these are little things that a lot of projects don't think of.
W: Yes, very small things, like just appreciating others’ opinions, just very small things that you have to make that effort for that can change the results totally.
T: I think people don't realize that, like you said, those little things can have a big impact. You're essentially, when you're starting a project like this, you're really asking the communities for a favor. Even if you think the end product will be good for them, you're putting a demand on their time. And so it's really important to approach them as human beings who you realize you're inconveniencing. So you mentioned that this process was a lot of effort. Besides the fact that it took a lot of effort, were there challenges that came up when you were doing this work? Like how about the dynamics between people or anything that you had to troubleshoot your way through?
W: I think, in terms of the challenge, the process is the challenge. Because we normally thought, “okay, so we plan, we implement, and then we have success!” but you know, normally it is not that simple linear process. So if you have this mentality, it could be that conservation is not yours to step in, because it's always dealing with complexities and then these challenges every day, especially if you're dealing with those different social groups with different mindsets, different backgrounds, and different values.
So I think the biggest challenge is not trying to fix their mindsets or their behaviors, but to let them come out with what they think and what their perceptions are. And then to shout out these things and then put them in the discussions, so that every group can visibly imagine what their thoughts are and then what their expectation are. I think that's the biggest challenge for me. So for me, for us, we have to arrange it so that everybody can talk and then so that everybody will listen, and then everybody will kind of, not just understand, but appreciate what their feelings and then what their expectations are.
I think that's the biggest challenge. After that stage, everybody's fine because of, “okay, we have different values, but we also have these things in common, so that's why we work together based on this common ground.” So they try to not think so much about the differences, but they step into this common ground and then they work together.
I talk a lot, but to sum up: so I find out that establishing the common grounds from different social groups in a very dynamic setting is, I think, the most challenging for me.
T: I mean, that does sound very challenging. I think in conservation, one of the things that people say that I really get tired of hearing is: they jump straight to behavior change. You know what I mean? Like, that's the focus. And I was like, what about just understanding and respecting where people are now? I don't think people give that enough space to be heard before rushing in to change something, which is actually pretty rude! And it often doesn't work.
So, I know you have a strong background with design thinking, with community engagement, with the work with MCCL, perhaps through your master's also, and with YSEALI: it sounds like you and your team were very thoughtful about this approach. But was there anything, even though you're very thoughtful, was there anything that surprised you or anything new that you learned through this process?
W: Yeah, I think like that something that is really new is: I feel like I also found, figured out, the very good common grounds between us who do the conservation as well as the communities that we work with, right? So yeah, we thought like, okay, we have scientific knowledge and then we have the answers as the conservationists. But like on the other hand, they also have their local knowledge and then they have local practices, which might be better than the answers that we already have or that the answers that we never learned in our classroom or in our papers. So I think they also have this wisdom, and noticing or being mindful about this wisdom is really very insightful and it's really enlightening for me. Because I think that's why I'm really enjoying getting into the community, because understanding different perspectives, and then learning new things. And that's one of the new things that we understand.
And also, we also have very common interests among us. For us, we try to protect the species or conserve the species for the sake of the science or something like that, different values. But I think that for the communities, they also have, they also really wish to sustain these fish or these natural resources, for their well-being or even for their generations. So I think we have those common things. And then what do we have to try our best is, okay, we have to understand that we have those common grounds. And then we work well together on this same overlapping area. So I think that's the new thing or the insights that I gained through working with communities.
T: Yeah, it's one thing to know in theory that there's local ecological knowledge, but I think it's hard to fully grasp it until you see it in action. And one of the areas where I've worked with you a lot is the marine mammals. And I think there's an interesting difference between local ecological knowledge on marine mammals versus fisheries. I think there's still a lot of valuable knowledge about the mammals, but especially when it's a species that their livelihoods depend on, they will have been paying a lot more attention to that. So it's a whole other level of expertise that they hold, which is really cool.
And so with these CFZs, I kind of have two questions in one: my guess is that there's some kind of committee that is responsible for implementing the management of the area. And of course, with that comes the challenges of funding or who holds the power or how do you enforce, especially across boundaries. So even if you set up a CFZ, there's still a lot that has to be done for it to sustain. So I'd love to hear, as of the end of the Gulf of Mottama project, what that status was and do you feel like they're successful so far or that there's good potential for success?
W: I think like maybe like the timing that we work on this initiative was really challenging, in terms of political intensity. So that area is a really conflict prone area as well as very sensitive area because there's a bridge. So like the security on this bridge is really high. So even for us to get to the community is really difficult. It's really high security risks for the team as well.
And then the sad thing is one of the most respected leaders from one of the villages, he passed away because during like his visit to that site, a bomb dropped, he was hit by a piece and then he passed away. And he was a really great personality. This one project was outside of the Gulf of Mottama project villages and we could only do all this effort because of that person, because of his strong leadership and his strong commitment. And he passed away. It's really sad.
So that's what I mentioned, that area is really fragile and it's really a conflict prone area. We cannot expect what will happen, like that's why it's really kind of a difficult or challenging situation. Yeah, it's very unpredictable.
Also in terms of the committee: yes, we have established the village fishery management committee in each of the villages. And these were selected by the fishers in each village. And because these two villages are on both sides of the river, they center the bridge as the center line. Then from the bridge to the upstream of about like 300 yards, it was a protected area for one village, and then the downstream of 300 yards was protected by the second village. So they have those different areas, and then the management committee are responsible for that.
So as for the funding: the project provided a mini trust fund to each of the groups of about like 5000 USD. And then we deposit it in a bank, and then annually, they receive interest from that fixed deposit and then they can apply that interest into conservation efforts for each for the for the communities.
So far, so we feel like it has really good potential to be successful. And also even in the groups in the village, they are already starting to collect fishery data, to assess the fish catch. So they are doing it by themselves. And then we sometimes monitor or we ask them to report the data so that we can manage the data. So they are continuously doing that.
But in order to do those kind of monitoring or effectively manage, it stayed difficult because of this really sensitive area.
And also in terms of recognition: after that area was established by the communities, the Department of Fisheries recognize these as like community-managed fish conservation areas. So these tools are officially recognized by the current government.
T: [Tara’s brother Danny comes by and spells out “Mingalabar!” (greeting in Burmese]
W: Mingalabar!
T: Yeah, I think establishing or supporting the establishment of these kind of community management initiatives is challenging under any circumstances, let alone the ones that were affecting those particular sites.
Is there anything you would change about how you and your team worked in the process? It sounds like you learned a lot and had some very thoughtful approaches, so maybe not, but If you could do it again, would you change anything?
W: I think what we might need would be spending more time with the community. That would be what I really want. Because we were working with the project, they also have the “we have to finish the outputs and then the outcomes” and so on. If I have a chance, I would like to be with the communities and spending more time with the communities and then to know more with them. So I think that that's the one thing that I would like to change.
T: Unfortunately, I think that's all often the thing that gets left out. But I think it. it would really not only is it the kind of the right thing to do, but I think it would really improve outcomes.
W: Maybe in the future, if we're doing like the project planning, we should have like one time for trust building or something like that. You know, like in the timeframe, include “we have got like this percentage of trust with the communities” as an output.
T: Yeah, exactly! It would be nice to see more of that. And I feel like people are recognizing it more and more. It's so important and it's just such a shame that it gets rushed through or even left out of a lot of project planning processes.
Well, thank you for that, because I've seen little bits here and there about the CFZs, like when I was doing the State of the Gulf of Mottama report, I think a little bit came up there. And you guys did do a lot, and you didn't have that much time to do it, because the model of how fisheries management was being approached through the project changed a lot within a pretty short time. So that's a pretty tight schedule to build trust and establish these new structures.
Unless you have anything else you want to say about the CFZs, I want to pivot. Do you have anything else you want to share at the moment? OK, I want to pivot to the next area where you've had a lot of experience, both as the person being educated yourself, but also as a mentor to other youths. And that's: the reality of the opportunities available to young people in Myanmar. And we talked about this even when I was in the country with you guys. We had this, I thought, really great program building interest and skills for young people to be involved in conservation.
But – I don't know if I shared how much it worried me – I felt very heavy about the fact that I could not guarantee these young people anything beyond our training. It's like we can train you and these skills will be useful to you, I think, no matter where you go. But I felt like we were getting them invested and passionate about conservation. And, well, there's not really that many job opportunities. So I'd love to hear from your point of view, what your perspective is on what opportunities are available to young people in conservation in Myanmar, both in education as well as career-wise.
W: I think first of all, I would like to set up my positionality before I discuss on things, right? Because I feel like I have such privilege and am very fortunate.
I have very humbling experience because I can access these education and other opportunities because I had the opportunity to start my passion career in very early ages of my life. And I am very fortunate to meet great mentors like yourself, Rochelle, Greg, and everyone in Point B, right? And also I have very supportive organizations like Point B, my mother organization at the time, and also colleagues like MCCL. So every time they're happy about whatever I do, right? So I think these are really good, they're very supportive. And then my visionary family who invested in my educations and stuff like that.
So I think these foundations really helped me to pursue my career or to pursue my educational goals, right? I feel like everybody in my position, if they have those kind of experiences or if they have those support systems, everybody can achieve like me. Because I feel like I'm very happy or fortunate about those support systems.
But in order to get back to your questions, so for those support systems, it's not really happening yet in the country, because conservation careers are still progressing. Right now, it's getting more popular than when we started and most people aware of conservation and then they are interested in and are considering that is has career opportunities.
But in terms of like the opportunities that we as an organization can offer, it is still limited. For example, so if one organization is offering a position, so they are still asking for relevant degrees in conservations or relevant degrees in natural sciences, which are really limited in the country.
And also, they are also expecting to have decent spoken English language. With that situation right now, you know, learning languages is really difficult for the people. And also like they are expecting to have some working experience, like one or two years of working experience. But what they do not offer is, those organization, they don't have internships or, you know, like any early career programs. But the organization, including us, so they're expecting somebody, so they will educate themselves and then find their opportunities somewhere else, and then they will get into those large organizations.
So I think this expectation might be really a barrier for the youths in Myanmar. But I think in order to solve that, the youths are also figuring out for themselves. So what they do is they make, with their colleagues, with like-minded individuals, they make groups or small organizations, and then they work together and then they join seminars. They gain those kinds of experiences by themselves to get into those routes. So this is, for me, really encouraging. And I really respect their efforts, right? That's why sometimes so I am also involved, like if they're inviting in like making a webinar, so I join there and then I join as a speaker or a panelist in there.
T: That’s great! I mean, this would have been relevant even before 2021, but especially after 2021 with how that impacted the university system and people's willingness to participate in the university system. It's really great to see these kind of grassroots efforts. It's a shame they have to do so much on their own, but it really speaks to their passion.
And I do want to say, Wint Hte, it's fair enough that you acknowledge your privilege. But of course, even with privilege, you do have to put in work and effort. So to be fair to you, you did put in a great deal of work. And speaking of that, I've never really gotten to talk to you that much about your experiences, even on a personal level, getting your master's degree abroad. And did it feel like you were prepared for it? Did it feel like it was accessible to you? I mean, obviously it was, because you got your degree, but I'm really curious what that experience is like going from the context of being in Myanmar and also having a degree in a very different field (engineering), and then jumping into this master's program on marine environmental protection.
W: So I feel like every time I go back to that time and reminding myself of that memory… “oh my gosh! Yeah, so I did it! It happened!” So it's unbelievable, right? So yeah. So when I grow up, so I love nature, but I never dream of becoming a scientist or ecologist or conservationist, because there's no one in my communities or there is no one in our surroundings, right? But that's passion, it really pops up. And I feel like, “I can, it is possible for me” when I was in Point B. And then I applied to the Chevening Scholarship and then, yeah!
I think that the working experience that I have in Myanmar in that context makes me unique or interesting among other contestants. And that's why maybe I'm selected, because comparing to other contestants who received Chevening, they are the great leaders, they are very well-known people in their fields or subjects, right?
So I was selected and then I get to the UK and then join the university. But for me, about one, two months of starting the course, I have very difficult inferiority complex. That inferiority is really difficult, because of like, coming from a small town and then everybody is speaking English. I can communicate in English, but you know, like I'm not that confident and also I'm very introverted. So meeting new people in new situations is difficult for me, right?
So I think, yeah, that one, two months is really difficult, but I take my courage and then I study myself and then make friends. And I talk with the professors, and then doing the work, and then, and after one to two months starting to see my grades, and then it seems “okay! so I have struggles, and then I can get these good grades, so I can do something right!” It motivated me and then that's why I can, you know, like walk on more and then I survive and yeah, I completed the degree.
T: That's so great. I was confident you could do it and also confident in the decision making of the Chevening Scholarship board (or whatever they're called). And of course, you had like Long Vu, who had done it and didn't seem to have a doubt in his mind that it was something you could do.
But I did wonder, because it's not just the degree; it's adjusting to a totally different culture, a different economic situation in terms of how expensive everything is there. And being immersed in the language all the time – even that can be exhausting.
It's so great that you got to have that experience. I know that anyone who has been a leader of MCCL has taken a good role in being a mentor to others, and that includes you. When you've been mentoring your peers who are also interested in pursuing higher education or careers, from your perspective as a mentor, what is that process like for them? What are the challenges and opportunities available and how have you been able to help them with that?
W: I think in order to prepare for them, it depends on like the person, right? Because in order to achieve those opportunities for us, there are different steps. The first step in the very beginning is you have to speak English. You have to have very good English language skills, and you have to take the test. So for the people who want to pursue those degrees abroad, the first challenge they need is to fulfill these language requirements. So they have to work really hard to have certain levels of English.
But for me, I can’t train somebody to get, you know, like very good English scores in IELTS or something like that. But I suggest some recommendations for teachers or support some kind of English trainings to them, like you did. I think that's the first steps. And then if they have certain levels of English, they are starting to think about applications. Okay, in order to write those motivation letters and then those essays, you really need to have very good English, because even if you have very great ideas and you cannot, you know, express in English, it's really difficult and it's really painful.
And seeing them struggling with English, I feel really bad for them, because I really just want to help them writing these things, but it's not, you know, like moral, right? That's why my role is to support , like to figure out, “okay, you're doing great,” and those kinds of mental support are really important.
And also the other thing is making the right decisions on where to apply or which program to apply is also very important, because of you have to reflect about your skills and then your knowledge as well as your capabilities. And then we have to suggest different programs and different schools or different universities. So I think for those matters, I support the people that I'm engaged with.
T: So it's interesting because you have personal experience with looking abroad for continued education and for job opportunities, which understandable – they're more limited within Myanmar. Even within Myanmar, a lot of that access comes from international organizations.
And then in your work with BRIDGE and also SOA Myanmar, there's small grants to youth and youth engagement. So there's also a locally focused pathway to be involved. Do you think that those pathways are getting more accessible and what could be done to make it easier for people to pursue conservation without having to, you know, deal with the pain of learning English, for example.
W: That's the main reason why most of my initiatives for youth engagement would like to localize and make things more accessible to rural communities as much as I can. Because all these opportunities and all these difficulties that I mentioned are only relevant to the urban communities, the youth from urban communities. Because they know that conservation is interesting and that opportunities are existing.
But there's a lots of people who stay in the rural areas where internet is limited and education is limited, but they have passion for conservation and they have nothing available to start working on something. So that's why I started out with those youth programs.
So the first one is in Gulf of Mottama. We initiated those youth engagement programs and then we bring them for like two, three weeks. Then we provided small grants and then we make two rounds in the Gulf of Mottama. And then we replicate those models to BRIDGE.
So I think so we can see a lot of those localized opportunities right there, right now. But in terms of how that compares to the demand, they are still limited. But I wish to have more people, more organizations, who are getting interested in building those knowledge or building those opportunities for the youths.
For example, even for BRIDGE, we didn't expect at all that almost 100 applicants would apply. And then we only have about 8, 15, 20 seats to provide. We have to really careful on selection process, right? So there's lots of demands out there. But we can only support about, 10, 20% of that demand, yeah.
T: That's very difficult. Tough decisions to be made.
I mean, I have a lot of other questions I'd like to get into in terms of how, you know, you've been to some international conferences and how has that experience been? And, well… I will actually ask this question. So, you are working with IUCN. I know – it's been a little while since I've been engaged with IUCN – but it seems like they're very happy having you work with them, it seems like people are responsive to what you have to say. Do you get a sense, because they are obviously doing some work with youth engagement, do you think that this is an area that IUCN is thinking about more critically in terms of how can they expand what they offer? Can they be a part of a stronger pipeline from these initial grants and engagement to actually people working in these fields?
W: Luckily, these efforts have paid off because they led to expand that model to BRIDGE because they thought this is a great idea. And then they let me lead in BRIDGE 5. And also we are talking with other organizations to have similar activities, to expand to other regions or other fields or other areas. So we are still working on that. I think they are pretty interested in that.
Even in IUCN Myanmar, in other projects, they are also trying to replicate this model in their projects. So for example, in Tanintharyi, “okay, why not?” So, we could also replicate this new program in Tanintharyi. So I think this effort are welcomed and it feels like, okay, we are doing something great, right? Because we are starting to consider about like the young generation. So I think we have like those positive changes or like changes in perceptions within the organizations.
T: That's great to hear. I mean, one of my favorite parts of working with, you guys, all the original MCCL team before I left in 2019, was… I mean, we worked hard, especially you guys, and we put a lot of thought into designing our program… but I thought it was surprisingly easy to have a great impact, compared to the effort. You can have real meaningful impact, and yes, we had good funding, so that helped, but you don't need any crazy complicated theories - you just need to have common sense and see who is eager for opportunities and what resources do they need to be able to share what they have to share and make the most of those opportunities.
And so I'm just really excited to hear that you've had more experience seeing that replication and really good, I guess, return on investment (even though I don't like thinking of it like a monetary thing). That's so cool.
W: I think these are also very important to focus on because of I feel like youth in Myanmar, they have lots of struggles, because some of them have to stop their education, they have to give up their career because of what is happening. So our contribution is very small contribution for us, but for them, this is great opportunity. So this is really rare opportunity. So everybody, they want to grab these opportunities. And then I feel, you know, sad in a way, but also fulfilled in a way because even our small efforts make huge hopes or difference for the people, right? So why not expand more? So we're moving to more positive directions and that's great.
T: That's very exciting. Very exciting. Well, thank you so much, Wint Hte. It was great to catch up a little with you. Even though I'm still collaborating with MCCL on helping get some papers out and get some grants, even then I don't meet with them enough. Since you've been with IUCN and we're not part of those same collaboration meetings, I never really get to catch up with you. So it's nice to hear a little bit about what you're doing and really nice to learn from you. Thank you for your time.
W: Thank you very much. And also, I'm a big fan of your podcast. So I think becoming part of like your podcast is really great experience for me as well!
T: Oh, thank you! That means a lot because I'm definitely totally volunteering my time to do it. And I'm just like, I think these are good ideas, and I hope people like them. So I'm glad you like it and I'm appreciative.
W: Yeah, we listen to it!
T: Oh, good. I'm appreciative that you are now part of it. Well, thank you and take good care over there and yeah, I'll be in touch!
W: Thank you very much!
FINALLY…
Thank you to Wint Hte! And thank you for joining me. The usual request: like, comment, share, subscribe, review, please! And if you are in a position to do so, you can donate to support my unpaid time on this project at this link (many, many thanks to people who have donated so far). I’m preparing for the pilot of my Conservation Sense training on mindsets, which is exciting, but also means that I’ll likely post less regularly in the next month or so. Please let me know if there’s anything you’d like me to cover in future episodes!
GUEST BIO: Wint Hte
My passion for conservation is rooted in the complex interactions between ecological and social systems in coastal and marine environments, particularly inspired by my initiatives in marine mammal conservation and research in the Gulf of Mottama. Working with IUCN Myanmar, and Myanmar Coastal Conservation Lab (MCCL) @ Point B Design + Training, my work spans species monitoring, social-ecological research, community-based conservation initiatives, and the monitoring and evaluation of conservation effectiveness. I also have extensive experience in leading youth empowerment programmes aimed at strengthening youth participation in biodiversity conservation and the management of wetlands and coastal resources in Myanmar. I have strong commitment in co-creating ethical and inclusive conservation approaches that integrate local knowledge and ensure the meaningful participation of communities and marginalized groups in conservation process. My long-term goal is to focus on community-based marine mammal conservation, especially where their survival intersects with small-scale fisheries.
